What You Need to Know About Being a Professional Gambler

[selectabet]

Howdy folks,

I don't know if this is the right place for this. But I've fired a few questions off to Matt, who is a professional punter and occassional blogger and he gave me back some cracking stuff - a real insight into the life of a pro-punter - very interesting.

The first part of the interview is over at the old blog.

[AnothrSpacecat]

By this point I had stashed away a fair sum of money that would last me a long time - this was saved cash, not cash I was gambling with.

I always say that circumstances usually play an important part, and I had them all spot on when I began. I lived at home (no overheads) and I didn’t have a girlfriend at the time (no overheads!). It meant I had all day and night to spend doing this and build up my savings and my bank. If you make money, never stop stashing it away never to be touched again, you may just be thankful one day.

im glad hes said those things, money makes money, its sad but true. starting from zero its near impossible to make a million, have a million and its just a question of WHEN for your second. can be applied to any amount of cash, im glad hes honest about it.

wouldnt want people to get lured in by such interviews, im sure all gamblers read these things with a nervous excitement (like the lad who finds the golden goose, the bank robber who is walking back out the door.. just gets lets of dangerous thoughts running through your head about how easy somebody can make it sound.!).

wheres part 2 selectabet?

[selectabet]

I'll probably post part 2 on Sunday Spacecat. The weekends always a bit hectic with other posts.

He was very honest and frank in his responses. Its hard not to imagine yourself being able to do it though eh? If only I had a system...

[AnothrSpacecat]

aye good stuff mate, would be interesting to see how it finishes, he certainly sounds more confident with you than he does on his own blog.

i clicked through and started reading a few entries, he seems fairly on edge to be honest and when he talks about taking time off or 'balancing his life and gambling' he almost sounds as if hes trying to convince himself thats what hes doing. he also sounds pretty lonely, though i couldnt say that without knowing him any better than reading his blog!

ill keep an eye out for it anyway.

[selectabet]

Part 2 now posted

[Wittmann 44]

I've read this guy's blog and its of a much higher quality than much of the garbage out there. I wouldn't class him as a gambler though - he strikes me more as a trader. If you are interested in finding how to bet on tennis (which is his sport) the blog is next to useless IMO as he doesn't give any idea of what he was thinking when he struck a particular bet or decided on an opening position. It is very strong on the psychology of gambling and the swings involved in trading. A lot of his work seems to be anticipating the market moves and trading accordingly.

I have to say I am slightly sceptical of his numbers or else I am completely underestimating his bankroll. Even assumeing he is leveraging his funds by laying heavy odds on shots in running losing 37K would mean that his bankroll should even at a 5% limit be more than 750K.

I also don't see how it is possible to function without a state of the art satelitte dish. I have a top end model and I barely trade at all.


Interesting read nonetheless.

[selectabet]

Yeah would have to agree Wittman - I think he classes himself more as a trader.

I'm not sure what kind of system he trades and don't know enough about the numbers to comment but I do think he was genuine in his responses - I can't think why he'd want to lie about it, but they are some pretty scary numbers at that level.

I've not heard from him for a couple of weeks so I'm guessing he's been keeping his head down during the Oz Open - maybe it ain't the glamorous/easy life it sometimes seems being a pro.

[mattpunt]

hi guys, found the trackback from Paul's blog glad you enjoyed the read.

just to reply to your feedback.. i don't give too much away on the blog as far as strategy goes, you are right. but if we're honest, neither would you really.. there's a lot of people read these blogs, many of whom you don't know about, no idea who they are and they never make themselves known.

edges in this game are few and far between, i've seen a gamblers edge disappear in a matter of a week or two just from certain things being said here or there. i make my living doing this, and even though it is great to think we are all battling a common cause, the reality of it is we are up against one another, even when we're betting with bookies. it's not really realistic to expect me to give much away..

i do however feel what i give away on the psychology side of things more than makes up for that. in fact i know i'm posting solid gold in some blog entries. lessons that were learned the hard way, or took many hours of reading to learn and many more than this to perfect or integrate.

the fact is, few people give this stuff the weight it deserves, i'd go as far as saying as a trader, 90% of it is in your head.. trading is mostly a performance thing, being out mentally by a few % is going to have a big effect.

i don't mind giving this stuff away, because everyone is different, and it is tough to learn in one go. and because it's tough, i personally have my doubts as to the extent to which people really take it in. they are too preoccupied with how much im losing, or who i think will win and why and what my physical strategy is. if people do take it in, then im genuinely glad they did and im very happy to help them, they're exactly the people I wanted my blog to appeal to... i intentionally wanted the blog to be different to the norm.

the blog has been an interesting endevour for me... i began it with the intention of maybe helping a few people out but mainly just for myself, as a sort of notebook on what im going through and thinking.. and that perhaps people might like to read what someone doing my job goes through.

it has it's stresses and strains... am i on edge at times? yes! i get frustrated like everyone else does on a bad run..


as for the numbers, i didn't lie, but i have nothing to prove and it doesn't worry me if people didn't believe them.

i was by admittance, trading too big at times, wimbledon is an exception though, i push the boat out and employ a bigger bank in that tournament due ot the liquidity and quality of the pictures.

btw, i didn't lie about the sat system either hehe i probably would invest in one if we had a huge house in the country somewhere, but we just don't have the space. i would get one just to see a load of tournaments I don't normally get to see.. do i need one to bet with though ? no, because my edge is not based on being quick or rapidly trading in and out. im taking positions based upon my idea of value against that of the market.. when we differ, i have a position, when we agree, my position is square... this, imo, is the perfect way to trade, but there's plenty who disagree. really, it's down to how you arrive at 'fair value' and what you do with that.

in the old days, i would scalp and get in and out - incredibly tough to do consistantly these days.

anyway, hope that's cleared a few bits up

[Hippy Dave]

Hi Matt

Thanks for that post, very interesting.

Why do you think people differentiate between traders and "gamblers"?

Essentially both are doing the same thing (seeking out value prices), the only difference is that one does it in running, and one does it pre-match.

Also, do you think you personally could make a living "gambling"?

[mattpunt]

hi dave,

i could write a book to answer those questions..

why do people differentiate between then...?

because i think the two are seen as being very different. gamblers are the old style of punters, people that put a bet on and leave it.. traders are this new fangled style of gambler that to most people only arrived after the betting exchange made it a possibility...

i very much think most people see traders as taking the easy option to making money and gambling as being very much harder and stressful.. there's a twinge of envy from the gamblers, and a sense of the traders are cheating almost...

i think they differentiate, because they are right to.. they are different to one another. you say they are both doing the same thing essentially, but i kind of disagree. discounting the fact that both are gambling (trading has just as much risk involved), the two are vastly different in approach.

you can do a lot of trading without the blindest care for value. in fact, theres a lot of times when traders would do well to care less about value.. i think some people get into trouble when they kid themselves that they need ot care about it to trade.

gamblers are all about value. they live and die by it, though it is a slow death if staked properly, since it will take quite a considerable amount of time for the negative expectancy to play itself out or prove itself..and the same is true of having an edge.. this aspect make it incredibly tough to do, and makes trading seem the easier and more appealing option.

... you can also trade pre match and gamble during the match..


let me just clear things up a little more maybe..

i consider myself a 'position taker'. essentially, a form of gambler, who when judged solely on actions looks like a trader, but the two are different. think of it as gambling, but doing it many times during a match, rather than just once... though there are times when i do just have one bet.

i rely on value, in the same way a gambler does, though i am realistic enough to want to reassess 'value' after each point. if this is different than before then i alter my position as a gambler in relation to this.


this is different to traders, who will use a variety of different ideas to get in and out of the market based entirely on market data and movement.. it's not neccessarily just value.


think along the lines of... more value bets in a day = more chances for the positive expectancy to grow. you are adding to your edge each time you bet. figuring out 'fair value' is much easier typed than done though.


i think your question then is probably, could you make a living as a gambler (in the classic - 'one bet' pre match sense) ? honestly - probably not, at very best - maybe.

[rockshark]

I make a very good living out of my value bet portfolio thank you very much!

[Wittmann 44]

Value is the key to successful punting or trading in my view – my experience of trading is very limited admittedly but from watching hundreds if not thousands of tennis matches and following some in running there are certain things that are clear from how the markets react – generally the markets overreact especially in the volatile and wacky world of the WTA. You will often see women players (not the top 10 players) down two breaks of serve and facing serve in the final set of a game go off at prices in the hundreds yet people will continue to back their opponents at 1.01 despite the fact that there have already been multiple breaks in serve already. The chances of the player serving out are often quite low and the odds on her opponent will shoot back up as soon as she fails to close out. This is replicated to a lesser extent in the ATP.

The markets tend to overreact to events such as winning a break point or more dramatically winning a set when the reality is that the games often have a lng way to go.

No one has said welcome yet Matt so welcome to Daily Punt. Hopefully you’ll post a bit here.

[AnothrSpacecat]

Trading on Sports is easier than trading on Stocks, reasoning is basic.

Unless I've got it wrong that is, as far as I'm aware a stock trader dealing his own money can only make money on stocks if the price goes up? Not the case on BF, you can 'sell' the stock before you buy it, theres more opportunities given you can make money with prices going either direction (though you can also make horrendous losses).

Also with markets on BF having off times, the whole machine ticks on at a fair pace, with some focus of an end time for traders who should be able to predict when a price will move in relation to it. The stockmarket has no such facility, could take you years to make your money on an individual trade.

Oh and on BF, you dont pay tax. Or do you Matt? What is the inland revenues position on all this?

[ONEDUNME]

I'm not sure that's right Spacecat,although I stand to be corrected, I'm pretty sure you can effectively "sell" shares that you don't have in the hope that they go down rather than up.

I think it's called "short selling".

You're right about the tax thing though as well as the cost of buying and selling. Although you could also view betfair's commision as a form of "tax". The difference between betfairs "tax" and normal tax though is that the more you win, the lower the "tax" rate is

[Wittmann 44]

The difference between betfairs "tax" and normal tax though is that the more you win, the lower the "tax" rate is

You get commission points on losing plays as well.

Short selling is pretty common and is the type of share activity often linked to insider trading. You know there's bad news and you short sell everything you can. Rumor is that Bin laden short sold masses of US stocks through inetrmediaries iN Saudi and Pakistan prior to 9/11 and made enough to make jihad self financing. His play on Liverpool winning the league that year was less successful however.

The stockmarket has no such facility, could take you years to make your money on an individual trade.

Day traders on teh stock exchange regularly churn all their shares on a daily if not weekly basis. There was a guy on the "Sunday Times" who had a column that ran for about two years. Ended up a bit up but for the time he put in he would have been better working in McDonalds. One of the Irish papers here runs a charity competition where 6 traders are competing for a 10,000 prize for charity. Again they are churning almost all their stocks weekly.

By the time you factor tax and charges in day tradeing must be a pretty hard way to make a few quid. You need serious cash to maximise incremental movements in the market.