your best laydown ???

[DAVEYBAZZ]

ok .
playing the $800 guaranteed last night and sitting preety 14 left and im 4th in chips when i get jj in early position .... raise 5x bb and get put allin by the only player at table who could knock me out so i fold ... he did say after he had kk but im dubious about that ... point is i went on to win for $240 so consider that as my best laydown to date 3 months ago it would have been an instant call

whats your best laydown folks ????

[alexross]

nh and gg!

AA [bubble -late pos, after 3 all ins] in a 4 way pot was my best pockts laydown (and it was a good one - i was against JJ and KK.. flop was JXK with 2 dead cards on river._

[Yen_Sid]

Originally Posted by alexross

nh and gg!

AA [bubble -late pos, after 3 all ins] in a 4 way pot was my best pockts laydown (and it was a good one - i was against JJ and KK.. flop was JXK with 2 dead cards on river._

This kind of debate crops up now and again in here Alex about folding AA pre flop, is it good play though? Fair enough a K and J came on the flop and you would've gone out the tournament on the bubble. You would however not have gone out due to a bad call, it would've pure and simple shit poker luck. I can see the reasoning for this kind of play if it was a satellite for example and top whatever all win the same prize. If it's just a straight tournie with the winner getting 30% of the pot (or whatever) then I don't think anyone should ever be folding AA preflop regardless of the all ins before you. Any aspirations to win the tournie would call all day long (imo) whereas someone happy to get into the money may throw them for fear of a bad beat. Well that's my tuppence worth anyway.

[Scottieboy08]

Originally Posted by DAVEYBAZZ

whats your best laydown folks ????

JEZ, get the leg endary $0.01 hand back in here

[alexross]

Yen sid- I hear what you are saying but experience has taught me a lot of lessons - one of them being that when you have 3 all ins you are looking at at least 2 pp's and maybe AK

so lets say we have aa v 3 random hands (random top 30% hands)


equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 61.821% 61.73% 00.16% 3360267499 8706502.50 { AA }
Hand 1: 08.798% 08.58% 00.22% 467246708 12197982.50 { random }
Hand 2: 15.827% 15.48% 00.37% 842560467 19930944.50 { random }
Hand 3: 13.555% 13.03% 00.54% 709304159 29373881.50 { random }


fine - we are obv winning most of the time and its instacall...

however lets say we are up against for example KK JJ and 88

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 53.748% 53.68% 00.07% 755471772 1014768.00 { AA }
Hand 1: 17.795% 17.72% 00.07% 249449868 1014768.00 { KK }
Hand 2: 15.006% 14.93% 00.07% 210187224 1014768.00 { JJ }
Hand 3: 13.451% 13.38% 00.07% 188298432 1014768.00 { 88 }


so we are winning just over 50% of the time.

I aint coinflipping on the bubble after 3hrs work in a deep well paid mtt ! lol.
you can't rely on maths all the time! I am waiting for a better spot.

[DAVEYBAZZ]

half agree with you alex if big money is involved ... this happenned to me in the mansion 100k the other night
Hand start time: 2007-07-07 22:19:35

Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players: 9
Seat 1: MrHuggybear(8,765.00)
Seat 2: daveybazz(3,850.00)
Seat 3: CpTiger(6,475.00)
Seat 4: DammiN(4,349.00)
Seat 5: ottokatz11(18,419.00)
Seat 6: bye bye muppet(4,661.00)
Seat 7: Lennyw(10,520.00)
Seat 8: Zacard(7,359.00)
Seat 9: Advanced(10,727.00)

Current Number of Players: 9
Advanced start position: 10,727.00
Zacard start position: 7,359.00
Lennyw start position: 10,520.00
bye bye muppet start position: 4,661.00
ottokatz11 start position: 18,419.00
DammiN start position: 4,349.00
CpTiger start position: 6,475.00
daveybazz start position: 3,850.00
MrHuggybear start position: 8,765.00
bye bye muppet posts ante (20)
Lennyw posts ante (20)
Zacard posts ante (20)
Advanced posts ante (20)
MrHuggybear posts ante (20)
daveybazz posts ante (20)
CpTiger posts ante (20)
DammiN posts ante (20)
ottokatz11 posts ante (20)
Lennyw posts small blind (200)
Zacard posts big blind (400)
daveybazz is dealt down [Ah Ad]
Advanced folds
MrHuggybear folds
daveybazz raises to (1200)
CpTiger folds
DammiN raises to (4329) and is all-in
ottokatz11 folds
bye bye muppet folds
Lennyw calls (4329)
Zacard folds
daveybazz calls (3830) and is all-in
Lennyw is refunded (0)
daveybazz shows [Ah Ad]
DammiN shows [Kh As]
Lennyw shows [Jc Js]
flop: [Kd Qd 9h]
turn: [Jh]
river: [6d]
Lennyw shows [Jc Js] for three of a kind, jacks
DammiN mucks
Lennyw wins (998)
daveybazz mucks
Lennyw wins (12070)
Lennyw says: "sry"
MrHuggybear end position: 8,745.00
daveybazz end position: 0.00
CpTiger end position: 6,455.00
DammiN end position: 0.00
ottokatz11 end position: 18,399.00
bye bye muppet end position: 4,641.00
Lennyw end position: 19,239.00
Zacard end position: 6,939.00
Advanced end position: 10,707.00
Hand end time: 2007-07-07 22:20:34

the lad who spiked the j went on to finish 6th for a good payday

[alexross]

eeeeeek.
VUL but illustrates my point nicely

if the same scenario happened again I bet you would play it the same though.

[DAVEYBAZZ]

of course i would evrytime but on the bubble id have to think

[Beanie]

Originally Posted by alexross

Yen sid- I hear what you are saying but experience has taught me a lot of lessons - one of them being that when you have 3 all ins you are looking at at least 2 pp's and maybe AK

so lets say we have aa v 3 random hands (random top 30% hands)


equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 61.821% 61.73% 00.16% 3360267499 8706502.50 { AA }
Hand 1: 08.798% 08.58% 00.22% 467246708 12197982.50 { random }
Hand 2: 15.827% 15.48% 00.37% 842560467 19930944.50 { random }
Hand 3: 13.555% 13.03% 00.54% 709304159 29373881.50 { random }


fine - we are obv winning most of the time and its instacall...

however lets say we are up against for example KK JJ and 88

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 53.748% 53.68% 00.07% 755471772 1014768.00 { AA }
Hand 1: 17.795% 17.72% 00.07% 249449868 1014768.00 { KK }
Hand 2: 15.006% 14.93% 00.07% 210187224 1014768.00 { JJ }
Hand 3: 13.451% 13.38% 00.07% 188298432 1014768.00 { 88 }


so we are winning just over 50% of the time.

I aint coinflipping on the bubble after 3hrs work in a deep well paid mtt ! lol.
you can't rely on maths all the time! I am waiting for a better spot.

Can't agree with folding AA preflop at all. Certain satellite situations yes, I'm sure I remember Jez showing a cash game situation where it made sense too(tho I might be wrong), otherwise no.

The fact it was the bubble and the fact you would have lost are immaterial, the bottom line is that if you put your money in there you win more money in the long run. Bingo. You could be waiting a hell of a long time for a better spot than being over 50% likely to quadruple up/or double/treble up and knock people out.

[alexross]

Originally Posted by Beanie

You could be waiting a hell of a long time for a better spot than being over 50% likely to quadruple up/or double/treble up and knock people out.

Well there are many other factors to consider (your M, stacksizes of others at the table - are big stacks to your left or right etc)

Poker is not just about quadding / doubling ur stack.. sometimes the long way is the best way. small pot poker, blind steals and bubble raping.(one of the most profitable times of the game for me) - I am willing to gamble - however I am not flipping for my tourney or sticking my balls in a blender! a 2% edge is not enough for me.

Consider this:

You and I have even stacks on the bubble of the sunday Million (We are in good shape - don't need to gamble and can wait till the money before pwning..),

you get dealt 22 - You know I have AKo in the hole and that if you push I instacall.

would you push? if we had the same stacks knowing that I would Instacall? I wouldn't.

someone a lot wiser than me once said "there are many roads to mecca" I am still looking for one of those roads lol.

[Jezza]

Hi Guys,

Alex I dont mean to be rude here m8 (im just talkin poker here) but no, that laydown is completely stupid. Its not your best laydown ever, its one of your worst.

There is absolutely NO situation in a standard MTT thats not a satellite where you should lay down AA preflop. If you are scared of bubbling then you are playing a tournament that is above your bankroll. If your NOT scared of bubbling then WTF are you doing. You will never, ever win an online MTT with a decent sized field playing like this. You wont even maximise whatever EV you have from your initial buy in. You might think you are being "clever" by laying this but its completely the opposite. You might think you made a good laydown because of the way the board ran out (you would have lost etc etc) but this is IRRELELEVANT also. Poker is a very deceptive game to your mind (this what keeps the bad players coming back). 95% of players get deceived into thinking they made a bad call/fold when they actually made a good one, or more commonly that they made a good call/fold when they actually made a bad one (the human brain is more forgiving on your own mistakes and trys to put the blame on others/outside influences). I really shouldnt have to explain why this is a terrible laydown to you alex, cmon are you seriously going to put an argument up in this thread over this??

The situation you describe in the sunday million is completely different to the AA lay preflop btw.

Beanie, I never have (and never will) lay AA down preflop in a cash game! Thats a misquote of me lol I would certainly never say that. I think you are remembering the time when I gave a situation that would be a clear cut fold of AA. One example would be this. A satellite to a bigger event. 5 seats are the prizes and their are 6 players left. You have equal chips with everyone bar one guy who is massive chip leader. You have AA on the SB. UTG goes all in and the next three seats call. You should fold.

I have a hand to post as a good laydown, but i will post it when i go next door in aminute onto the computer w my ptracker database.

JEz

[Jezza]

I have posted this hand before (in the old an exercise in hand reading thread). However Ill post it here as although its maybe not my best EVER laydown it is certainly my most memorable. Its my most memorable because its the single most important hand I played from being a "player" point of view. I realised after this hand that I had what it took to play poker professionaly. Its several years old now.

able "Pink" Seat 5 is the button.
Seat 1: captainT ($82 in chips)
Seat 2: Kharybdis ($124 in chips)
Seat 3: royalnutz ($47.50 in chips)
Seat 4: Dormouse ($136.75 in chips)
Seat 5: Nomizz ($69.25 in chips)
Seat 6: Cowardly sits out
Seat 7: ElMuerte ($29.25 in chips)
Seat 8: Ie_cooer ($137.75 in chips)
Seat 9: redsfan ($111 in chips)
Seat 10: SuperJez ($84.25 in chips)
ElMuerte: posts big blind $1
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to SuperJez [3h 3c]
Ie_cooer: folds
redsfan: folds
SuperJez: calls $1
captainT: folds
Kharybdis: calls $1
royalnutz: calls $1
Dormouse: raises to $5
Nomizz: folds
ElMuerte: folds
SuperJez: calls $4
Kharybdis: calls $4
royalnutz: folds
----- FLOP ----- [Kd 2s Jh]
SuperJez: checks
Kharybdis: checks
Dormouse: checks
----- TURN ----- [Kd 2s Jh][Kc]
SuperJez: checks
Kharybdis: checks
Dormouse: checks
----- RIVER ----- [Kd 2s Jh Kc][3d]
SuperJez: bets $17
Kharybdis: folds
Dormouse: raises to $66
SuperJez: folds
Returned uncalled bets $49 to Dormouse

[Doc]

strange action there from Dormouse. Did he have Jacks or Kings, do you know?
I think I'd have tried to get a little for my hand before the river. Had that 3 not hit, you would have check-folded the river and with a relatively small pot he isn't going to get much action from anyone - why not build it a little with a small continuation bet on the flop, maybe check the turn and raise on the river. If he had bet, for example, $5 on the flop he may well have got callers, albeit suspicious ones, who may well have looked him up or bet into the river if he followed it with a check on the turn - no?

[Beanie]

Originally Posted by Jezza

Beanie, I never have (and never will) lay AA down preflop in a cash game! Thats a misquote of me lol I would certainly never say that. I think you are remembering the time when I gave a situation that would be a clear cut fold of AA. One example would be this. A satellite to a bigger event. 5 seats are the prizes and their are 6 players left. You have equal chips with everyone bar one guy who is massive chip leader. You have AA on the SB. UTG goes all in and the next three seats call. You should fold.

Haha, apologies - I remember a thread on it and for some reason remember you engineering a situation(over and above the standard satellite one) where it made sense - musta been wrong tho. The mind plays tricks.

[alexross]

Originally Posted by Jezza

alex, cmon are you seriously going to put an argument up in this thread over this??

hehe - I prefer to call it a discussion

it's a coinflip -simple. the 22 v ak on bubble example I gave was also a coinflip situation. I wasn't saying it was the best laydown because I would have lost (hindsight is after all 20-20 vision) - in fact it was a terrible laydown pot-odds wise - but I have recently decided that math cannot rule your game although it obv plays a massive part.


p.s regarding your full house hand - why on earth did you fold? you have $60 left and about 60$ in the pot- If he has an overboat I am paying him off. I am never folding that hand... It's a cash game and u can reload if you donk it! If he didn't show you can only speculate that you made a good laydown. it does show that you are willing to fold monsters though, which is a good poker trait.


anyway lets agree to disagree on this one