2 hands that happened in 5 minutes that really pissed me off

[mrmuzeman]

Bit of a rant here but hopefully some discussion will come of it. Also im on a shite run this month so REALLY dont need these sorts of annoying hands.

First one...bit of player info here as its very important to the hand. The player 'bigwedgey' (lol) had been calling preflop probly over 50% of the time and I read him as a sort of player who bluffs a lot and thinks top pair is a monster etc.

Seat 1: LiveRoar1 (£53.95 in chips)
Seat 2: Earls (£6.30 in chips)
Seat 3: bigwedgey (£62.28 in chips)
Seat 4: Dino077 (£42.16 in chips)
Seat 5: I_STACK_U (£75.85 in chips)
Seat 6: BenSprock (£82.92 in chips)
Seat 8: Dyg888 (£19.95 in chips)
Seat 9: 4fours (£14 in chips)
Seat 10: chisum (£51.55 in chips)
BenSprock: posts small blind £0.25
Dyg888: posts big blind £0.50

----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to I_STACK_U [Ac As]

4fours: folds
chisum: folds
LiveRoar1: folds
Earls: folds
bigwedgey: calls £0.50
Dino077: calls £0.50
I_STACK_U: raises to £3
BenSprock: folds
Dyg888: folds
bigwedgey: calls £2.50
Dino077: folds

----- FLOP ----- [Qc 9d 8s]

bigwedgey: checks
I_STACK_U: bets £5
bigwedgey: raises to £10.50
I_STACK_U: calls £5.50

Very dodgy getting min check raised there on that board but as I said player info I had to call, really couldnt risk a raise cos Q9, Q8, 98, QQ, 99, 88 J10 all hav me well beat.

----- TURN ----- [Qc 9d 8s][8c]

bigwedgey: bets £6
I_STACK_U: calls £6

----- RIVER ----- [Qc 9d 8s 8c][Ts]

bigwedgey: bets £7
I_STACK_U: calls £7

----- SHOW DOWN -----
bigwedgey: shows [Jh 9h] (A Straight, Queen high)
I_STACK_U: mucks hand [Ac As]
bigwedgey collects £51.55 from Main pot

Fookin middle pair and a gutshot, I know hes got a decent chance with that off the flop but still v annoying that is to get rivered by such shite.

[mrmuzeman]

2nd one

Seat 1: abouteven (£31.35 in chips)
Seat 2: dannel (£68.10 in chips)
Seat 3: MJOM59 (£18 in chips)
Seat 4: I_STACK_U (£56.65 in chips)
Seat 5: Pappad1 (£30.55 in chips)
Seat 6: Grafter (£38.50 in chips)
Seat 7: danick (£11.13 in chips)
Seat 8: Acerclubs (£42.25 in chips)
Seat 9: Jim_mcjim sits out
Seat 10: Ned_123 (£103.20 in chips)
dannel: posts small blind £0.25
MJOM59: posts big blind £0.50
Pappad1: posts big blind £0.50

----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to I_STACK_U [Kc Kd]

I_STACK_U: raises to £3
Pappad1: folds
Grafter: folds
danick: folds
Acerclubs: calls £3
Ned_123: folds
Ned_123 sits out
abouteven: folds
dannel: folds
MJOM59: folds

----- FLOP ----- [Qc Qh 7d]

I_STACK_U: bets £5
Acerclubs: raises to £10
I_STACK_U: calls £5

Totally and utterly thought he was putting a play on me there. Massive chance he flatcalls if he had the tripQQQ. So i call as no draws to speak of.

----- TURN ----- [Qc Qh 7d][7c]

Now v interesting turn. I check to see what he does. If he bets (as expected) I really cant see him ever having a Q, surely the nuts would be checked there.

I_STACK_U: checks
Acerclubs: bets £15

Nice big bet by him, never has the Q and since he called 6bb preflop cant be giving him credit for a 7 neither. Thought hed either fold to my putting him all in or donk call with JJ, 1010 or 99.

I_STACK_U: raises to £30
Acerclubs: is all-in £14.25
Returned uncalled bets £0.75 to I_STACK_U

----- RIVER ----- [Qc Qh 7d 7c][8d]

----- SHOW DOWN -----

I_STACK_U: shows [Kc Kd] (Two Pairs, Kings and Queens, Eight high)
Acerclubs: shows [7s 6h] (A Full House, Sevens full of Queens)
Acerclubs collects £82.75 from Main pot

Feckin 2 outer on the turn cant hit a 6 cos I already got 2 pair.

Bollocks to those handsand rant over

[mrmuzeman]

Actually not quite

Just to add, you know when you decide your gonna have a break for a bit but just do 1 more round before the BB comes round? Those 2 hands happened in that last round before my break

Anyone got any opinions on how I could have played them better. Obviously you have to bare in mind that we dont know what they have when were playing (cos obviously reraises on boths flops would have been the best play but are they realistic? On the 1st hand 100% not, 2nd hand perhaps? He is drawing to 2 outs though afterall )

[Beanie]

Yeah - I'd say a reraise on hand 2 after the flop(easy to say looking at the way it panned out granted) but given that you're out of position I'd like to be asking the question to see if he has a Q there, as whatever comes next is unlikely to give you any sort of help with regard to putting him on a hand.

I'd probably be re-raising the first hand after the flop too - but thats probably just the way I play. I like to ask my questions nice and early and if I haven't got the info I want I'll reraise to find out before seeing any more - prob saved me from outdraws a few times but also cost me a few £ in not getting the most from a hand, so its horses for courses.

Anyway, as it was just 2 sucky outdraws - those "one more once round" type hands are the hardest to take.

I remember sitting beside pistol one day, and he had 1 more hand to go before he was the BB and we were getting ready to leave the computer room. He had the "sit out next hand button" clicked and I say "Naw you've gotta play this hand, even if its just incase you get AA."

He unclicks the box, cards are dealt...A....A...boom. Some ironic laughter followed. Then five minutes later I'm getting chased out the door after he got stacked for $50

[stereoman]

I don't understand the mentality. It's as though they think they can predict the outcome of the cards (if you play enough hands I suppose some people develop what they think is some ability to do so) or hope the flop hits them hard (faling that the turn or river will rescue them).

I was playing a low-limit ring game once. Raised with pocket kings in early position, I get a couple of callers (one from the big blind and another in late position). Innocuous looking flop of J48 of three different suits. I bet out on the flop, big blind calls, late position raises and effectively puts me all-in. I call, big blind folds and me and late position are heads-up for the pot. Late position hit two pair on the flop with J8o. I'm absolutely gutted as the turn's a useless 6 but the board pairs the 4 on the river and I beat 'em with a higher two pair.

You were gonna go on a break? Bloody hell, these kind of things happen.

[mrmuzeman]

Cheers for the reply Beanie.

Nah I cant see reraising on that first flop being a good play a lot of the time. Min checkraising a preflop raiser on a Q98rainbow board, would be much better than just a pair A LOT of the time.

I'd say a reraise on hand 2 after the flop(easy to say looking at the way it panned out granted) but given that you're out of position I'd like to be asking the question to see if he has a Q there, as whatever comes next is unlikely to give you any sort of help with regard to putting him on a hand.

Fair enough on that one a rereraise. Thing is I didnt need to put him on a hand. I was totally convinced that he wouldnt make that play with a Queen and as theres no draws its gona take something pretty fcukin special to outdraw me on the turn. Thought he might bluff it all off to me actually, probly wouldve too

[Beanie]

Originally Posted by mrmuzeman

Cheers for the reply Beanie.

Nah I cant reraising on that first flop being a good play a lot of the time. Min checkraising a preflop raiser on a Q98rainbow board, would be much better than just a pair A LOT of the time.

But if you think he will be beating your pair a lot of the time, why just call and call him all the way?

I think a reraise would allow you to determine whether or not he's flopped a monster here, or whether he's playing a draw aggressively. I think if it was the former he'd let you know by way of a reraise, or the latter by way of a flat call.

[mrmuzeman]

Call because its good odds im getting (thats why minraising is so crap) PLUS the player info I said about. There was more chance than not im beaten there even with this player but with small bets Im not folding incase. If he put in a big bet on turn or river id have folded for sure, wasnt a case of call all the way whatever like. There isnt much in the way of draws tbh Beanie bar gutshot stuff and the chances of getting min raised on a pure gutshot is slim to say the least.

Reraise that flop (lets face it if you reraise there its gona be for most of your stack) and your gona find yourself donking off a lot of money with big pairs quite a lot. You need to take into account the nature of the raise combined with the board, I wouldnt blame anyone for folding the AA on the flop there tbh.

[mrmuzeman]

Youre correct about wanting to make decisions for chips on the flop though, thats a key aspect and something you should be looking to do as much as possible so kudos for that. You cant always do that though theres nothing wrong with playing the streets from time to time.

[Beanie]

Yeah...I should have said I'd be looking to either reraise or fold(which might have been my prefferred option but then again with player info ach I dunno ), but as I say I guess that's just the way my game is at the moment - I like to make my decisions, and if I don't have enough to go on I'll go out and get it...and if it had been me playing this hand I'd have either folded, won it on the flop or turn, or been stacked for just about all my cash...nature of the beast I suppose.

Looking again I hadn't really taken pot size into account so I take your point about calling down cheaply being decent here - its something I used to do but not something I think about much anymore to be honest...I probably should

I think I got my fingers burnt so many times overcomplicating things at low levels(ie elaborate bluffs and representation of hands and the like which the fuckers are too fucking stupid to recognise ) that I've gone full circle to the most uncomplicated strategy possible.

Anyway, where were we? Ah yeah, unlucky

[mrmuzeman]

Cheers for your replies mate, appreciate it

No I totally agree Beanie you are right, keep it uncomplicated, straight up and be aggressive and make decisions on flop as much as poss. Remember we cant always do that though cos then we would never have much to talk about in here!

[Beanie]

Very true - I might start to mix things up a little more now that I'm playing at .25/.50 and .50/1. I got a bit bored earlier tonight - made a bit of profit but wasn't really enjoying the poker - all my decisions were fairly easy and it was kind of robotic.

I got to thinking how good it would be to be able to play like Gus Hansen...just get your 2 cards whatever they are and off you go on your own little journey, with no ideas in your mind about how you're gonna play them and just a great ability to react to how the hand pans out, and its that kind of flexible approach that probably underpins this whole discussion and something I might try and incorporate a little more.

You've got me thinking about my game now which is why these discussions are always good . I'm off to go and dream about Gus(his playing style obviously )

[mrmuzeman]

Yeah right eh Beanie

Tbh mate I know you were half joking/fantasising () play like Gus in full ring cash games on the net and you wont have a bankroll for long

Seriously carry on more or less as you are doing. It should be fairly robotic really in the main. If you wana try getting tricky and doing some sweet stuff regularly etc then start playing $50 HU games or short handed 3 or 4 players.

[aliensyndm]

Sometimes simple is best. Just bet your good hands and fold yer shite hands.
Sounds obvious but I think sometimes trying to second guess yourself against shite players doesn't help. It's only when you are against decent opposition you try to get fancy...but why play ? Just don't get involved with them or move to a different table.


Stereo - That's the thing, people calling large raises with hands like J8 all the time is a serious leak for their game. If you flop one pair you can end up being dragged into a pot against an overpair and it costs you. If you flop nothing you get the pot taken away from you on the flop. If you do flop 2 pair and get all in on the flop there's still a pretty decent chance for the over pair to outdraw you.
The overpair will outdraw the flopped pair 1 in 4 times.
Comapre that to calling with a pocket pair and flopping a set and getting all the cash in, the overpair is only 1 in 11 now.


I know what you mean about the timing muze. Often you are gonna sit out just when the big blind comes to you after making a nice profit say and then you get dealt AA or something and are like, shit ! You almost don't wanna get involved but you can't throw AA ! Hey if shit happens just go all in pre-flop and there's no decision to make eh ? Problem is you can still be called and outdrawn

[mrmuzeman]

Right after finishing playing and getting myself refreshed (Fridays the best day to play always good to put in your biggest lot of playing that day) ive had a good thinkle about these 2 hands.

The 1st I really dont have a problem with imo I played it the best I could.

The 2nd one however is not really optimal play looking back now. If I had properly thought it becomes slightly (not totally though) irrelevant if Im very sure im ahead due to the pot size. Its about £20ish and at £50 table thats well worth taking down here I think right now on the flop with a reraise. If it was much less playing the way I did I think is fine but thats a pretty decent pot to win right now. A key rule to remember is to win big pots right away. I think I just wanted to pwn him as I knew he didnt have it.

Having played it the way I did calling, there is definitely something I should have picked up on. When I check to him he bets £15, if you notice hes got £15 left behind. Betting HALF your remaining stack like that when you could check definitely stinks of a strong hand. If he has Ax or JJ, 1010, 99 like I expected him to hed very likely be all in for the whole £30 there rather than what was bet.

Thats an important thing to look for which I overlooked here, that half the stack bet when you could check really does look like a strong hand. I still dont know if I coulda folded it though but I perhaps could have done. At the end of the day I aint gona beat myself up about it though, I am a 1/21.5 favourite going into the turn! Where was my river K or Q