KK played wrong...

[cains]

Hey all..

Will just post how KK should NOT be played... Comments is welcome..

Getting Hand History Information...
----------------------------------------------------------------
Hand #10101926-6192 at Idaho Falls (No Limit Hold'em)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 11/Dec/05 10:34:46

Mike_Mack is at seat 0 with $33.10.
AceLee is at seat 1 with $20.
EskimoMann is at seat 2 with $20.20.
HERO is at seat 3 with $51.40.
TurtleTop is at seat 4 with $59.
diggerod48 is at seat 5 with $19.75.
ReadIcculus1 is at seat 6 with $23.40.
AlphaOmega is at seat 7 with $19.75.
tehpimpxor is at seat 8 with $133.75.
The button is at seat 2.

HERO posts the small blind of $.25.
TurtleTop posts the big blind of $.50.
AceLee posts out of turn for $.50.
Mike_Mack: -- --
AceLee: -- --
EskimoMann: -- --
HERO: Kh Ks
TurtleTop: -- --
diggerod48: -- --
ReadIcculus1: -- --
AlphaOmega: -- --
tehpimpxor: -- --
Pre-flop:

diggerod48 calls. ReadIcculus1 folds. AlphaOmega
folds. tehpimpxor folds. Mike_Mack folds. AceLee
checks. EskimoMann calls. HERO raises to $1.75.
TurtleTop calls. diggerod48 calls. AceLee folds.
EskimoMann calls.

I think this move is okay.. There was some callers. And hopefully my raise could chase out 1 or 2 of the callers..


Flop (board: 8h 9h Td):

HERO bets $4.50. TurtleTop calls. diggerod48
folds. EskimoMann folds.

This move is much worse.. Its a scare board.. And with 3 other players in the pot. I could be against Flush draw or Straight draw.. I deceide to make a half pot bet.. To scare people away..

Turn (board: 8h 9h Td 2h):

HERO bets $3.50. TurtleTop raises to $7. HERO
calls.

Dont ask why i betted here.. Now i dont know what i was thinking..
And to call his bet as well..

River (board: 8h 9h Td 2h Jc):

HERO checks. TurtleTop bets $5.50. HERO folds.
TurtleTop is returned $5.50 (uncalled).

Hand #10101926-6192 Summary:

$1.50 is raked from a pot of $30.50.
TurtleTop wins $29.
----------------------------------------------------------------

[Run Dmc Vs Pat Nevin]

At least you chucked 'em away in the end. I know loads of people who would have called that raise.

[mrmuzeman]

Ok mate unlucky its never nice to lose with KK but at least u didnt lose too much whic can often be the case!

Ok pre floppo. You raise which is of course GOOD as you dont want to slowplay KK. If anything here I think you raised too little. The reason i say this is because you are in small blind. You are going to be out of position for the hand and you DONT want to be out of position againts multiple opponents really. I think you should be rasing more like $2.50 here but overall not too bad. BUT I do think you gota raise more to cut opponents out here.

Now this flop is not a good flop for KK - the 3 connected flop. You can GUARANTEE theres someone with a straight draw here.

The pot stands at $7.50. Here you either bet the flop hard or go for check raise I think. You gotta bet good here or just not bother at all. A good bet would be around $7.50 for the pot so basically your bet of $4.50 was just pricing draws in. They were getting around 3/1 to call which theyre gona do on any open ended straight or flush draw.

I deceide to make a half pot bet.. To scare people away..

You wanna scare people away do a full pot size bet, a half pot will never scare them away.

After the call theres $16ish in the pot. When the heart (completing a poss flush falls) thats a definite bad card for you unfortunately. Could still be straight drawing it but we dont know - see how being out of position is not good here cos you have to act first.

Your bet of $3.50 here is a pointless bet tbh but I know why you did cos you were scared of what he had I know how it is But either bet proper or not at all. Here you should probably just check it. If not you gota bet hard but I would just check and see what he does. Its pretty likely hes got you beat with a flush or poss straight etc. Once he raises you, you gota be done with the hand I think. If you call here youre basically saying you have the best hand. He is value betting here I should think with that small raise and I really doubt you have the best hand.

You folded on the end which probably saved you a bit of money but obviosuly you cant call on the end anyway with that board

[cains]

Originally Posted by mrmuzeman

Ok mate unlucky its never nice to lose with KK but at least u didnt lose too much whic can often be the case!

I have lost around 200$ with KK last 2month.. And i dont play higher limits than this.. But mostly 0,10/0,20.. So have been a bad hand for me

Originally Posted by mrmuzeman

Ok pre floppo. You raise which is of course GOOD as you dont want to slowplay KK. If anything here I think you raised too little. The reason i say this is because you are in small blind. You are going to be out of position for the hand and you DONT want to be out of position againts multiple opponents really. I think you should be rasing more like $2.50 here but overall not too bad. BUT I do think you gota raise more to cut opponents out here.!

Always my problem on how much i should raise.. Couse i want to win many $$ So need as many in as possible.. (didnt notice until you wrote it, that i was SB, and bad position for the rest of the game.) Another thing i have to put into my game..

Originally Posted by mrmuzeman

Now this flop is not a good flop for KK - the 3 connected flop. You can GUARANTEE theres someone with a straight draw here.

The pot stands at $7.50. Here you either bet the flop hard or go for check raise I think. You gotta bet good here or just not bother at all. A good bet would be around $7.50 for the pot so basically your bet of $4.50 was just pricing draws in. They were getting around 3/1 to call which theyre gona do on any open ended straight or flush draw.


You wanna scare people away do a full pot size bet, a half pot will never scare them away.

Agree now that the bet was to small.. Think i should have checked it.. Now i think of it.

Originally Posted by mrmuzeman

After the call theres $16ish in the pot. When the heart (completing a poss flush falls) thats a definite bad card for you unfortunately. Could still be straight drawing it but we dont know - see how being out of position is not good here cos you have to act first.

Your bet of $3.50 here is a pointless bet tbh but I know why you did cos you were scared of what he had I know how it is But either bet proper or not at all. Here you should probably just check it. If not you gota bet hard but I would just check and see what he does. Its pretty likely hes got you beat with a flush or poss straight etc. Once he raises you, you gota be done with the hand I think. If you call here youre basically saying you have the best hand. He is value betting here I should think with that small raise and I really doubt you have the best hand..

Think my problem here is that normaly when i make a probe bet on the flop, and i get called.. If i dont have a hand, i know for sure the other guy bets out a couple of $$ and then i fold. And he shows 27o or some other crap hand.. So sometimes i just bet again, couse sometimes they take the draw from the flop, and if it miss, they fold to turn bet.. But of course should have thrown my hand away..

Originally Posted by mrmuzeman

You folded on the end which probably saved you a bit of money but obviosuly you cant call on the end anyway with that board

I knew before river, that i had to check/fold no matter what hit.. Except with a king, i could call small bet, and with a heart i would hit flush.. But could have lost a lot more, couse he could have A flush...

Thanks for feedback muze..

Has to put some more thinking to my game.. But 20sec isnt much..
Especially when i enjoy a beer now and then....

[mrmuzeman]

I have lost around 200$ with KK last 2month.. And i dont play higher limits than this.. But mostly 0,10/0,20.. So have been a bad hand for me

Thats probably just short term luck mate dont worry about it, the $$$ will come with this hand.

Always my problem on how much i should raise.. Couse i want to win many $ So need as many in as possible..

You can win a whole stack off 1 opponent, thats more than enough for 1 hand surely! You dont need lots of people in to make the $$$

[GETT1NLOTS]

To be honest Pingo I have seen KK played much, much worse than that.

Firstly it was a nightmare flop with flush and straight draws showing.

Second the turn was another nightmare increasing the chances of a flush.

Third the river couldn't have been much worse.

The only thing I will say is that after the river when you check you might as well say I haven't hit. I sometimes bet something small like $2.00 here (as the $2.00 is naff all) just in case (JUST in case) they are drawing and have missed. Now you can be against a check raiser here but considering the read I am putting on your betting I would guess you have missed. It's not beyond the wit of man to guess that maybe (just maybe) you were bluffed from the pot by a player with the benefit of late position?

That said I'm 99/100 sure you weren't and the fold was an excellent one (but for the extra $2 I test it out as it has won me a few surprise pots in the past when players fold or flat call for a showdown).

[cains]

Originally Posted by GETT1NLOTS

To be honest Pingo I have seen KK played much, much worse than that.

Thanks gett.. Yeah i know its not the worst way.. But still bad after flop, and especially after turn.

Originally Posted by GETT1NLOTS

The only thing I will say is that after the river when you check you might as well say I haven't hit. I sometimes bet something small like $2.00 here (as the $2.00 is naff all) just in case (JUST in case) they are drawing and have missed. Now you can be against a check raiser here but considering the read I am putting on your betting I would guess you have missed. It's not beyond the wit of man to guess that maybe (just maybe) you were bluffed from the pot by a player with the benefit of late position?

That said I'm 99/100 sure you weren't and the fold was an excellent one (but for the extra $2 I test it out as it has won me a few surprise pots in the past when players fold or flat call for a showdown).

Yeah might work once in a while.. And actually dont need to be succesfull that many times, to be profitable.. Will think over it. But had no read on him at all.. except he had more $$ than he could bring to the table, so had won some hands before..

[GETT1NLOTS]

I wasn't reading the odds that closely Pingo as I've been on the old red wine so I hope you'll forgive me for not going back and getting the correct percentages.

But say there is $60 in the pot and you are pretty sure you are beaten due to being outdrawn - I sometimes bet $2 or so to test it out. I've been surprised how many times I have taken the pot against a bluffer or folder in low stakes games (IN PARTICULAR) here.

[cains]

with 60$ in pot, and 2$ bet i will call no matter what i have.. If i have played a hand that far, so small a bet compared to the pot, will not scare me.. But cant say if it will to others.

But get your point though.. This pot ended on 30$ and with my bets so far i dont think that could scare him.

Nothing beat a good red wine.. So you have got that white wine changed??.

[GETT1NLOTS]

- two bottles still in the winen rack mate. I managed to take 3 up to the Lakes when I was away this weekend. I'm such a generous soul they think.


As for the KK hand I'm giving advice full of drink as you can see. I'll read this again the morning as I can't play when drunk so new players ignore.

I thank you.

[cains]

They might have been drinking as well then...

[Jezza]

All right guys,

Some very good replies here and I hope I dont repeat too much of what has already been said!.

Ok from the beginning.........

Preflop
-------

You were right to raise here. This might sound obvious but it can work out well to slowplay high pocket pairs against aggressive opponents on occasion. Many people try and do it too much tho. Being out of position against multiple opponents is definately NOT a time to do it. You have a hand you are going to get attached to a lot of the time and should definately charge your opponents a good price for trying to beat you with it. I would (as I usually do ) suggest a pot raised raise preflop here. You came pretty close to that but a little bigger preflop raise here is probably closer to optimal than what you did. Dont get me wrong your raise was pretty much ok pingo but make use of that ultimate bet "bet pot" button - its especially lovely preflop!

On the flop
-----------
Oh geez what a horrible flop! Barring a ace coming their are not many more nightmare flops than this, especially OOP against multiple opponents. If someone has not already overtaken your pair of kings big style (which is very possible with that board) then their are almost certainly a myriad of draws out there which make you a coinflip at best (if not an underdog against some hands). This is very ugly and one of the toughest spots to find yourself in with KK. Against one opponent I would be wary let alone several ones!. Ok your options here are.

1) Betting hard
2) check/folding
3) check/calling
4) check/raising.

Betting hard is of course the obvious option. It is not exactly a disgusting play but in this situation I really do not think it is the best. The point being that even if you are not beaten at the minute there are a million cards that can come off on the turn to make your kings seem worthless, and then your position leaves yourself at the mercy of your opponents. What are you going to do if you are raised? What are you going to do if you are flat called and a scare card hits the turn? It is not often I recommend playing passively with a hand like this after raising but I think this is one of those times where there is a very fine line between playing weakly/being run over and dumping money into a pot that you are going to have a hard time winning. To be honest I would have to check this flop purely to see what my opponents do and get more of an idea about how good my hand is/what they are holding.

So I choose to check....but do I check/fold check/raise or check/call? Well it all depends on what happens next.

If a lot of action kicked off on the flop after I checked here, betting and raising etc I would have no problem folding straight away. Dont be annoyed at having to throw a good hand like this away, the action is showing you are beaten and it would be up to you to judge the play on this. I cannot see folding to a lot of action on this flop being anything but a good move in the long run.

If a very small stack (which none in your hand are I think) bet and everyone else folded I would prob check/raise him all in for his last few cents. Its not going to cost anything if you are beaten if he is short and there is a good chance he is just on a draw - you can take the gamble safely enough (and you will prob be coinflipping, but just cross your finges and hope )

If a big stack bet and everyone folded I would just flat call. Yes you could be letting a scare card come off for cheap but I will take that as balancing out the chance you are beaten already. You are odds on for something ugly to be hitting the board before the final betting round anyway and hopefully keeping the pot smaller here and playing the turn well will help your long term return on this hand, more so than getting into a raising war on this board anyway.

You chose to bet on the flop pingo, this is not a terribly bad play and you are charging him correctly (well bet the pot to be sure of this) if he has a draw - but you are gonna have to be prepared to muck your kings on a lot of cards.

The Turn
---------
Ok, so I guess we are assuming here that I did option 3 here. I check/flat called a big stacks bet. If this was the case and a total brick hit the turn (non straight/flush/A or T card) I would prob pot it. It is an unusual play to do this but you can see the logic here. He now only has 1 card left to make his draw (if thats what we assume he has, and not the made hand) and you are siezing control over the pot. If I got raised after pot betting a blank turn I would prob muck straight away - there would be only the slimmest chance your kings would be ahead. If a scare card fell (like it did for you) I am also giving up the hand. You do indeed have the K hearts in your hand but I would only call the tiniest of tiny tiny bets to chase that (possibly dead anyway) dream - just muck your kings and move onto the next hand. I think you had to give them up here pingo - hard to do I know but urggghhh gotta be done sometime

The River
---------
Ok assuming I pot bet a blank turn and got called I am checking the river NO MATTER WHAT COMES. If its a total blank again, I am prob calling any bet for the fairly decent chance he missed his draw. If any of the draws hit I am check/folding to any decent bet for sure. You did well here to avoid the final payoff pingo, you were certainly beat and A LOT of players would donk off a fiver in that spot there. A dollar saved is as good as a dollar won and it all adds up at the end of the day.

Very interesting hand that you posted up mate, an extremely tough one to play and of course many players will disagree with me. I think its an exceptionally difficult one the more I think about it.

The mistake you made I think mate was calling on the turn - the flop play can be argued over but I think once the heart hits its gotta be bye bye kings

Hope this helps....would love to hear some more opinions on this hand.

Jez

[Doc]

my thoughts:

First off it is a difficult hand so 'criticisms' I make are intended as fairly mild, and in any case largely just opinion!

I think I'd go with a substantially bigger pre-flop raise. There is an extra blind in the pot already and only two callers (before your raise) - one of whom is the button who may well be coming along for the ride with any half-decent cards (I would ) The other guy is the table short-stack, so I wouldn't be as worried about him.
Looking at it from the point of view of the BB when you raise, it costs him only $1.25 to call what is already a $3.75 pot. He is gambling that neither of the other two re-raise, but he is getting nice enough odds. Once he calls, the UTG player is getting 4-1 to be 3/4 (at worst!) players against a button caller who hasn't shown strength. Same logic for the button caller who is getting position and 5-1. All of them might think you are just trying to steal the pot.
You have a monster hand here (for now!) with only AA beating you, but being out of position against many players is the killer. You have to be particularly careful of the umbrella effect whereby one call makes further calls more likely. I'd have raised to about $5 here I think. If everyone folds - so what - you've just made 4.5 Big blinds. One caller is ideal, and any one of those guys calling is not going to dramatically change the call/fold decision for another. Best of all, you might be seen as trying to steal the pot and someone may play back at you!

Ok - so we now find ourselves at the flop stage and it isn't nice! Here is how I would approach it. I'm out of position and I need to find out where I stand quickly. If I check I find out nothing about my opponents hand, as someone is sure to bet at me. Am I going to call is the question? If so - then bet now and let them make the decision. From their perspective you could have AKs, AQs, AJ, JJ, TT - i.e. they have plenty of reason to be scared of you if they don't have the nuts!
I therefore would bet the flop, and the next question is how much? What I'd want to do is take down the hand now. Either way I'm not going further than the flop in terms of investment. If I'm called I'll be looking to check it through. There is $7.50 in the pot - your $4.50 bet will look like continuation bet. Its' not bad, but someone on a flush draw or straight draw might figure they are just about getting implied odds - especially if they have both - e.g. AJs or KJs. I'd probably have looked to bet the pot here - it is only $2.50 more (less than you bet out on the turn).

On the turn you really have to ask yourself what your opponent could be playing - you have to read him for a straight or flush draw. If it is the latter he has hit and your bet is a donation. If it is the former, then you need to bet enough to scare him. Your small bet screams that you have overcards (or an overpair) and hope he hasn't hit. His raise is enough to get more money in the pot, but you find it difficult not to call another $3.50 into a pot this size.

So overall:

Preflop: too small
Flop: Ok, but maybe a little bigger
Turn: Way too small, and weak crying call to his raise. I'd almost certainly check here, with a little theatrical delay. If he only puts in a small bet I might re-raise him - representing a made flush (I wouldn't do this often though - it is a very aggressive play and you want to be fairly sure he is the sort of player who could lay down a flush draw) or else I'm done
River: If still there, check-fold

[Jezza]

with a little theatrical delay

The eastenders school of poker

Jez

[cains]

thanks all have defently learned some here..

1. I should take more notice on how my position is after the flop.
2. I have to bet more pre flop, when more people has already entered the pot
3. I should take more notice on the flop.. If its bad for me or not.. If bad fold (bad position)
4. Make pot raise on flop, instead of that small bet.. The extra 3$ could have saved me money in the end.
5. Need to more and less...