A situation with pocket Aces

[mrmuzeman]

Ok youre in a cash game. Youre in early position. You pick up AA

Under the gun limps in. You raise to 4xBB. For the stakes we will say this is a $4 raise. Theres 1 call and all else fold back round to the under the gun limper who also calls.

$13.50 in the pot.


Flop comes J 8 3 ALL DIAMONDS


You look and yes you DO have the Ace of Diamonds.

UTG checks so you bet $10, other guy folds then MR.UTG check raises you and bets $20 which was double your bet.

So youve been check raised and theres around $40 in the pot. You both have about $80 left infront of you.


What range of hands do you put him on and what do you do?

[christianu]

So you mean he has raised to $20?

Id either put him on 88 or the flush. Wouldnt be able to split between the two, this presuming he is a tight agressive player or a player you know nothing of.

Now I would probably call an extra $10 as you are getting 4/1 odds which is about right for the next card to be a diamond and you also have position on him regarding the next card anyway.

Now if the turn is not a diamond he would probably put in a $20 bet into a $50 pot so now I would fold.

[mrmuzeman]

Yes there was a raise to $20.

I will discuss possible scenarios after the flop and what youd do after ive got a bunch of replies to this original question

So in short Chris you think your behind here then and your hand isnt good at this point? What makes you think specificly 88 as well?

[christianu]

My experience at this point MrM, sounds stupid actually as ive played less than most but in my short experience im not going to get raised at this point by someone holding just a pair. It is possible yes and thats why you might need to know more about the oppenent.

He has just limped in as I would do with 88 or 33 UTG so both are good possibilties, a hand like QdKd is another good possibility. Otherwise it isnt going to be a bluff with a minimum raise now as he isnt going to scare you away with that raise and he is also out of position. Its a scary board but a strong player would not make this move.

Now I personally beleive trips here as usually he may flat call and slowplay but with the diamonds he has to up the ante and put out a bigger bet on the turn.

Has this happened to you by the way MrM?

[mrmuzeman]

Oh yeah mate happened to me tonight and i PLAYED IT FCUKIN SHITE so im looking for peoples views and opinions on this hand so I can commit to memory the best way to play this situation....

[aliensyndm]

Well whatever hand you do put him on I'm definitely calling the extra $10 to see the turn. If the turn comes a diamond you have to go all in in on the turn in case he has a set. He may or may not call if he does, obviously you would want the call. If he has a flush there's a good chance he'll call as well. If he has two pair he'd have to be a munter to call that but sometimes they do.

The decision is if you call the $10 and the turn is not a diamond, that's the real tough question. It's very hard to try and discern what he might have knowing nothing of the player. Obvious danger hands are 33,88,JJ
Is the person the kind of player who would check raise to try and get you off a pot or has he check raised the minimum cos he wants called ?
J8 is a possible hand as well.
Something tells me he's probably on a flush draw himself but is trying to represent that he already has it by check-raising. Could be totally wrong but it's hard not being at the table and having seen the person play etc you know.

OK so say the turn is a blank like 2 spades. If he checks I would check along with him, free chance to catch the nuts, if you are beaten you're just putting money into a pot you are losing. Now if he bets the pot on the turn, which would be 53.50 you're probably gonna have to lay it down. You would only expect that kind of play from something better than 1 pair, which is the only hand you are currently beating and you certainly do not have odds to draw a diamond. Now if he sticks in a somewhat smaller bet like $10 then yeah of course you can call that with decent pot odds and implied odds. The only slight danger is if he has a set and the river makes a flush but fills him up for a full house. You'd do well not to lose your stack if that happens as it would be hard to fold the nut flush there


Ok what I would probably do is call the inital $10, if I catch a diamond on the river I am putting all my money in. If the turn is a blank I will call a smallish bet for another diamond as long as the turn didn't pair the board in which case I could be drawing dead, but I'd probably have to fold to a pot sized bet on the turn if I didn't improve.


OK muze so tell us what happened ?

[mrmuzeman]

Nah sorry Alien im gona wait for more replies to this before saying any more. Cheers for you reply mate

Im interested that neither of you thought re-raising all in on the flop was a decent play. Its very aggressive and you do have a big hand and big draw. Lets see what others think...

[ABWN]

i would virtually do the same as alien, call a small raise or put it down on a decent/big raise after the turn.

[aliensyndm]

Aye virtually, I would do it with more style bookies

There's probably a case for re-raising all in yeah but it's probably not the play I would make. If I re-raise all in I wanna be pretty certain I have the best hand, I could not really be certain of that in this situation. Why put more money than you need to into a pot you might not be ahead in ? Also if a diamond does hit and the guy is on a flush draw you are gonna get a payday, if you raise him all in you don't get that chance. It's only gonna weed out a hand you were beating anyway, a hand which will probably then fold or it's gonna get called by a hand that is ahead. There's a small chance the guy could be playing something like KdJc and might call or whatever but I am assuming your opponent isn't a total numpty here.

[mexineil]

I can't believe I'm the first one to say I'd do this:

All in.

There's no reason to believe your AA isn't good at this point, and you have the draw to the nuts. NO chance am I giving him credit for the flush. You can't always be scared of someone holding 2 diamonds when the flop brings 3 of them. So if we forget about the possibility of him having the flush just now, the flop is J83. You can't ask for a much better flop for your bullets. The only realistic hand he can have to beat you is 33 88 JJ, and you would think he would be raising preflop with JJ. There are an awful lot of second best hands he could have here. KJ with the Kd is a realistic possibility, or even the Qd. And even if he has you beat just now, then you've still got a great chance of winning with a diamond or an ace on the turn or river.

Christian, and Alien too in fact - I think your suggestion of how to play the hand is really weak. Why would you want to call of some more of your chips then leave yourself with a very hard decision to make on 4th street? Put your opponent to the decision, stick your chips in. You've got a pair of aces and the redraw to the nut flush. As a great player once said:

"Enough screwin' around gasbag - I'm all in!"

[christianu]

I cant disagree with you there Neil and in the heat of the battle I probably would stick them all in, just when you have so much time to think on here its easy to takea more cautious approach.

Id be so wary here of my pair not being ahead just due to my experiences, I dont see somebody check raising with KJ QJ or Neils own J9 but he wouldnt be in the pot now with that, he'd have already stuck them all in 88 or 33 looks a real possibillity but then again if I had hit trips on the flop and 3 diamons were out Id look to bet at it, rather than give other players the opportunity of a free card.

I would probably stick them all in but im not suggesting its the definite right move.

[Doc]

at the risk of agreeing with Mexineil, I er.......agree

You have to consider what he thinks you might be holding. Raising a single limper when holding AKd, AQd (or even AJd) would fit your hand - i.e. he has to know that you could have the nuts.

Also - he closed the betting before the flop against 3 hands, getting more than 3-1 to call your raise. Plenty of players would call that in a cash game with a range of hands - he might have 99, TT (with a diamond), or somesuch hand. He might have KQ (with one or two diamonds), KTd even QTd or 98d.
He might even have an overpair and have decided to try and scare you off the pot.

His bet might make sense if he had the nuts - just trying to get more money from you, but when you have the ace, I'd put him all-in. He now has to worry that you have the nuts, or at least a draw to it.
If he has KQd you have a 32% chance to outdraw him (about 3% of that being when you fill up or make running aces). If he has QTd then you have a 27% chance of outdrawing him, or T9 where you have a 23% chance.

If he has JJ you have a 34% chance of winning and if he has 88 you have a marginally higher chance. JJ is very unlikely we would have to think though.

I don't think calling is a terrible play - he still has to be worried about the nuts, but if a blank falls on 4th then you are down to around 15% to win. If the board pairs (assuming he has the flush) then you are up to 23% again. You can make a decision based on what he does, as you have position.

Overall, all-in would be my first choice, but calling is ok.

[mexineil]

Aw isn't this nice, everyone getting along?

[aliensyndm]

No reason to believe your AA isn't good ? Erm what about the check raise ?
A check raise normally screams I HAVE A MONSTER HAND.
It does depend on the player but normally when someone check-raises you they have better than 1 pair. I don't wanna be working out my chances to outdraw him. Sure if you go all in you've still a reasonable chance of outdrawing him if you are beaten but most of the time you are only gonna be called when you are behind, why do that ? How much of the time are you gonna be called all in when are you actually winning ? Assuming your opponent isn't a total numpty not very often. Like I said before I wanna be pretty certain I have the best hand if I am gonna commit my whole stack, having just been check-raised, normally the indication of a very strong hand, I cannot be certain that I do.

By your logic if you believed your aces were good on the flop and hence were willing to go all in there's no reason at all not to call a pot sized bet on the turn if it falls a blank then surely ? Obviosuly now after the turn your chances of hitting the flush are reduced but if you think your aces are good anyway it doesn't matter. The problem on the turn is, what if your aces aren't good ? That's the decision right. Well why stick all your chips in on the flop when they might not be ? For $10 you have a chance to be certain they are.
You can then get some further info on whether they are good or not by the players action on the turn. If he checks you can check too. If it's another pot sized bet you then that's some more information on the how good your aces are. The main drawback to just calling the $10 is you may end up folding the best hand. That's the key thing you obviously want to try and avoid. But by calling the $10 you have two plays from your opponent to give you an idea of how good you are, by going all in on the flop you only have the inital check raise to go on. Plus you are only likely to be called when you are behind.

Opponent does come into it a bit I would say. Against a loose aggressive person putting him all in is probably not too bad of a play. He may think seeing as you bet $10 to a $13.50 it was a sign of weakness and try and get you off it. Against a tighter player I would be far more wary of a check raise.

[Doc]

The key for me is that he can't have the nuts - because you have the Ace of diamonds.

Your bet of about 3/4 of the pot is perfectly consistent with having the nut flush. If you re-raise him all-in he has to give you credit for the hand. His raise is offering you more than 4-1 to draw a card - with position! It makes no sense for him, IMO, unless either a) he has the nuts and wants you to play with a lesser flush or
b) he has some other hand such as trips, a weak flush (e.g. 76s) or a draw to a lesser flush

I think he is just looking for information with a non-nut hand. He might have trips, but he'll have to let it go in the face of an all-in here where you have showed nothing but strength. There are just too many ways he is beaten. KQs is about the best case you can make for him, and even that says weak player to me - wanting to play an average drawing hand out of position against two players who have demonstrated strength.

All-in it is, and even if he does win - you'll get the money back from a guy like this.