good fold/bad fold??

[wazik]

Hand #202054323 at table: Table TH 576
Started: Sat Feb 11 00:11:33 2006

amber60 is at seat 1 with 81.05
marco06 is at seat 2 with 63.45
tony76 is at seat 3 with 13.50
Jack_777 is at seat 4 with 61.65
Big Muppet is at seat 5 with 66.95
Zaraff is at seat 6 with 21.60
bob38 is at seat 7 with 50.55
vicnik is at seat 8 with 49.05
Cmoir is at seat 9 with 49.15
Wazik is at seat 10 with 40.10

Wazik posts the large blind 0.50
Cmoir posts the small blind 0.25

Cmoir: --, --
Wazik: Qs, Qd
amber60: --, --
marco06: --, --
tony76: --, --
Jack_777: --, --
Big Muppet: --, --
Zaraff: --, --
bob38: --, --
vicnik: --, --

Pre-flop:

amber60: Call 0.50
marco06: Call 0.50
tony76: Call 0.50
Jack_777: Fold
Big Muppet: Fold
Zaraff: Raise 1.00
bob38: Fold
vicnik: Fold
Cmoir: Call 1.00
Wazik: Raise 2.00
amber60: Call 2.00
marco06: Fold
tony76: Call 2.00
Zaraff: Call 2.00
Cmoir: Call 2.00

Flop (Board: 8h, 9c, 5h):

Cmoir: Check
Wazik: Bet 4.00
amber60: Raise 8.00
tony76: Fold
Zaraff: All in
Cmoir: Fold
Wazik: Fold

This is all the hand history I have as this site seems to stop tracking it when your out of a hand but anyhow usually this flop is a good thing with QQ but Zaraff's bet makes it about another $16 and amber has me well covered. The flop screams flush and straight draws but not much thats actually beating me yet. I dont fancy them for aa or kk much as there would have prolly have been more preflop action. When I am folding I am thinking I should be calling but with 2 folks getting their stack in maybe one has already made trips but even if they havent I have 2 folks trying to outdraw my Qs.

so I am out and the turn comes a Q river a nothing card, I am swearing at the fold when Zaraff flips over J10o for a straight and Amber shows her flush which the Q on the turn also made.

so..... in this instance I suppose its a good fold but I was ahead on that flop.

Should I have jammed all my chips in and try and get amber out then worry about the other guy?
I think this is most likely a bad fold, if it had been heads up I would have called his all in without too much consideration but having 2 put me off.


comments/discussion/tips/suggestions/abuse welcome

[Doc]

My thoughts wazik:

your bet pre-flop is way too small. Either flat call, or raise big (to at least 4.00) to narrow the field.

Also, your bet on the flop is anaemic. There is $13 in the pot and you bet $4. Even before considering implied odds, other callers etc, that is almost a mandatory call for anyone still involved. Another advantage of raising bigger pre-flop is you should have now eliminated a lot of hands that fit this flop (e.g. 76). I'd still bet bigger on the flop - probably $9 or $10. The problem at the moment is the money you've been getting into the pot (yours and those of the people who call you) make it irresistable for people like Zaraff to call.

[aliensyndm]

I certainly would not like to be shoving all my chips in with QQ on a flop of 598 after that has happened. There's alot of ways you could already be beaten, straight or 2 pair or a set all quite possible.
There's alot of ways if you aren't beaten already which you can be outdrawn - straights, flushes even a hand like AK has a reasonable chance to outdraw you. You'd be committing an awful lot of chips to a pot where you aren't exactly sure you are favourite at the time and even if you are there's still a huge chance you could be outdrawn.
It's a coordinated flop, it would also be dangerous to be involved in it during the turn as there are so many scare cards that could cause you to lay down the best hand. I think fold was fine here.

[wazik]

yup, I completely agree. It was what I thought when I looked back at it as well. I shoulda raised more preflop when the current bet was just a buck and I should have bet more on the flop as you say.

Not sure now why my bets were so small as looking back I cant think why my flop bet wasnt bigger, was asking for trouble really wasnt it

[mrmuzeman]

Yeah Wazik mate you were your own worst enemy here im afraid but as long as you learn from it youll be a winner

Youve got QQ in the big blind. Of course your happy about this but you REALLY dont want to be up against multiple opponents here if you can help it. Your out of position here in the blinds.

With 3 limpers, a min raise and a call of that before you, you simply have to get your chips out and pump it up big. Get those drawing and marginal hands outta there and find out at the same time if any of those early limpers were possibly being cheeky with a big hand themselves (no real reason why this would be the case but you do see people limp in early with AA and KK). With $4 in the pot and you to act you should be looking to raise up to somewhere in the region of $5-$6 here imo.

After whats happened happened though you got away from your Queens which was the right thing to do so props for that.

[aliensyndm]

Women causing problems again eh, nothing new there !

[mrmuzeman]

mate

Yeah those bloody bitchin Queens kicked my ass in the Main Event as well

Big pairs eh who needs em

[Jezza]

Hi Wazik,

Interesting hand you posted up here, I can see why you had such a tough decision....lets go through it step by step.

Preflop
-------
Ok I think you definately slipped up a wee bit here....with QQ you almost certainly have the best hand at the minute, and it is certainly not one you really should slowplay out of position against multiple opponent (especially as its one you might get attached to post flop - to your detriment so may as well make them pay to see it). You were right to reraise preflop however you should definately reraise more here - I would suggest about the size of whatever is already in the pot. I have not counted this exactly by reading back but I think it would be in the region of making it 6 to go preflop - this way you really take control of the hand and make your opponents pay for trying to outdraw you (remember - good poker is aggressive poker!)

The Flop
--------
ok so it comes down 8hearts 9clubs 5hearts - not bad! This is a pretty good flop for QQ, OK so you might be beaten by a set, someone playing 89 or someone playing 67 but the chances are your good. No overcards flopped nor did you get something disgusting like 345suited so you pretty much have to figure you are still in front. There are definate dangers tho - lots of straight draws and an obvious flush draw which means you must bet hard to protect your hand and make others pay incorrectly if they want to chase against you. Again I would suggest around the potsize if you are stuck for an amount to bet - remember aggressive poker is good poker! You can play the next streets according to the action/what comes off/what you think your opponents are giving you action with.

What Actually Happened
------------------------
Ok so as we can see, it all kicked off bigstyle :drums ... You were right to sit back and have a think when it all went off like this. Very often (like, practically always) a bet a raise and a reraise all in show that an overpair is usually beaten - however this time is a little different. The difference here is the draw heavy board. So many players at the lower limits online (and errr...even 50/100 NL lol) go nuts when they flop a flush draw - wild semibluffs (Which can be an excellent good move when used well) are pretty common, and rather than leave themselves to a tough decision on the turn a lot of players will play them all in on the flop. Due to this (And the fact there is a straight draw here also with J10 being a definate possiblity for someones hand) you have to think there is a real chance you are against a draw. I can totally see why you thought you were on a beaten - if the board was rainbow I would probably have folded it as well, however the chance of the draw on this particular board increases the chance of your hand being good to the point you have to reraise all in on the flop - and close your eyes and pray

Once you see the cards the others had you are right when you say it was a bad fold (although to be fair, definately excusable) - however the fact you would have lost if you had called does not make this a good fold. This is how the majority of gamblers think and it is just plain WRONG. In poker an individual result (like winning or losing this hand after calling) is irrelevant - what matters is that you got the money commited to the pot when you were ahead (or had good odds to play for a draw) - if you do this consistantly you will win in the long run, if you dont then you will lose.....

Jez

[wazik]

Cheers for the comments guys, live and learn eh

[wazik]

must have posted at the same time as you Jez as I hadnt seen yours before I posted.

Originally Posted by JEZZA

Once you see the cards the others had you are right when you say it was a bad fold (although to be fair, definately excusable) - however the fact you would have lost if you had called does not make this a good fold. This is how the majority of gamblers think and it is just plain WRONG. In poker an individual result (like winning or losing this hand after calling) is irrelevant - what matters is that you got the money commited to the pot when you were ahead (or had good odds to play for a draw) - if you do this consistantly you will win in the long run, if you dont then you will lose.....

yup, although in this instance I would have lost this pot overall its a bad fold. I think if I had stuck all my chips in and then lost I woulda been a bit pissed but only because I hade made mistakes in the hand up to that point. If I had played it like Alien, Dr and MrM have suggested then as you say win or lose is irrelevant as I would have played it correctly and was ahead when the chips went in.

thanks all

[wazik]

Originally Posted by aliensyndm

Women causing problems again eh, nothing new there !

gah, just got stung with em, up against KK