AK out of position

[mrmuzeman]

Encountered this situation a couple of times today and I realised I was unsure what to do as the best play in general. Of course theres no wrong or right answers but maybe we can get some discussion going, maybe if people can give some theoretical examples as well.

The jist of the the situation im talking about is this. Youve limped with AK (take this as a given Doc and no arguing - thats whats happened here ok ) Someone on the button puts in a healthy 4 or 5bb raise. You call it and you and him take to a flop in a heads up pot.

Your out of position and the flop comes Ace hi or King hi. What is your play here? Do you lead and if so half pot / full pot? Do you go for a check raise? Or even a check / call? If hes got QQ or JJ whats the best way to make money from it?

I know it greatly depends on the board so Ill give a few dummy boards off the top of my head (feel free to make your own up and add them in a post). Each one your out of position full ring, heads up pot and have called a 5bb raise and have no player info with full stacks.

1 - Board A 8 2 rainbow

2 - Board K J 5 rainbow

3 - Board A 10 9 with 2 hearts

4 - Board K Q 10 with 2 spades

[aliensyndm]

Right well first one I go for a check raise I think. If he's raised with KK QQ JJ etc it's pretty easy for him to bin it if you lead into this flop. If you check it it's pretty likely those hands might stick in a continuation bet and you can check raise that and probably win there and then, hence picking up that bet as well as what's already in the pot. If he calls you might be a little wary but I think a set is checking this alot more than it's betting it. If he's raised with AQ AJ then check raise is fine too as if he's a donkey he'll think he's winning and pay you off (which he probably is if he's raising 5 BB with AJ)

Now a possible raising hand which has you in deep shit is AA (or 88). 22 as well of course but I would rate that less likely. If he has flopped trips then on a rainbow board it's very likely he will check them. The flip side of this is he may check KK QQ JJ too but I think a continuation bet is far more likely.
If he does check the flop it makes you a little wary of course but you haven't committed any more cash yet. Lead into the flop and he has trips and he's probably just gonna flat call you and you are left wondering if your AK is good or not.

OK that's my thoughts on the first one, someone else do the next.

[Doc]

The position you've limped from is highly relevant, e.g. if you've limped from UTG, then you have to give the raiser credit for a stronger hand than if you've limped from cut-off. Obviously your knowledge of the player who raised is key.

I'll digress later as to why you should have raised but for now, we'll just take it as postulated.

You can play the hand at a range of 'paces', going from very slow (e.g. looking to check-raise the turn), to very fast (overbetting the pot on the flop). The more risk there is to your hand, the faster you want to play it, as a general guide.

1. This is a great candidate for slow-playing. Depending on the player I might lead out with a small bet (maybe 1/3 to 1/2 of the pot) or just check it. I'm probably going to wait till the turn to get busy.
2. This is a little more dangerous, as JJ is a quite possible holding, as is maybe KK. AQ and maybe AT are gutshots, and there could be backdoor straight and flush draws against you too. If the player is aggressive then I might check-raise, otherwise I'm going to bet something like the pot here, certainly at least half-pot
3. I'm going to lead at this with at least half the pot. Lots of back-door flush and straight possibilities
4. As above, but even more dangerous, albeit you also have a gutshot. I'd bet the pot and play defence if he stays around.

On the more general point, this is exactly why it is a big error IMO to limp into a pot with AK. Your big worry is AA, but there only 3 ways someone else can make that. That chance is small enough to more or less neglect, until someone plays back hard at you. KK is nasty but you can still make a straight or spike one of the 3 aces. Any other pair is a coin-flip, and any other unpaired cards you are a big favourite. You're going to call most raises, so why not be pro-active and get your money in first, while you have equity in the pot. Limping just lets people in cheap who might be calling with a whole range of things that could outflop you. Many times they will be out of position, and you are also vulnerable to a BB-special - e.g. the flop comes A34 rainbow and you're facing 52o with a made straight!
As it is the button has raised and you have no clue where you stand, and you're out of position - he might well be raising with AJ to isolate you, he could have a lower pair, he could have the same as you, or he might have a monster. Had you put the money in and been raised, then you can either fold or be very wary. Had he just called, then you have some idea as to what he might have (from the above), and you've also probably ruled out small pairs and AQ, AJ, AT and maybe AK.

[mrmuzeman]

Yeah Cheers for that Doc, I like playing flops you dont lets leave it at that eh

The reason i put this...

(take this as a given Doc and no arguing - thats whats happened here ok)

was to hopefully avoid the AK debate that weve had on several occasions thats been done to death before! NO NEEEEEEED

[christianu]

Yeah, im more comfortable calling a raise with AK than I am leading into a pot with it, pots after calling raises with the big slick have been very profitable for me.

The first flop A 8 2, dream flop for my AK, very very unlikely im behind here, as alien rightly says, i check-raise and allow a continuation bet, magic.

The second flop, Id do the same but i may be tempted to just check/call, could be either really. I may even lead out, theres a number of good ways to play this. Id still expect to be ahead but not as pretty as the first flop, AA and JJ are the worries.

Third flop you have to bet dont you given the draws, if im raised after a bet then it gets difficult, 10 10 and 9 9 are more likely raising hands then 88 or 22, but he could be a numpty with A rag. Wouldnt want to develop a big pot here, so id bet small amounts for any information.

The fourth flop a lot like the third one really.

Nice thread muse

[Doc]

at the risk of re-running this argument - I just don't understand the logic here.

before any action pre-flop my thinking on AK is that it is a very strong hand that has equity against most hands. It is however only ace-high so can be vulnerable to smaller pairs and reverse domination. Raising it preflop is aggressive, but does buy you information about other hands who stay involved, as well as (probably) removing the threat of reverse domination and small pairs.
I can to some extent understand (albeit I disagree) with just flat-calling and waiting to make an Ace or a King on the flop, but surely cold-calling a raise with this hand is asking for trouble. If you're going to play cautious, why not junk it to a raise, as you would with say AQ or AJ - and if you're going to play it, why not re-raise to get a feel for whether you're facing AA or KK (your nightmare)?

Say you cold-call (with position) and it is checked to you - is someone trapping or playing a hand you have dominated? Are you behind to middle pair or to a monster? Even with an Ace or a King, where are you?
If it is bet to you, you have to fold unless you have the straight, the ace or the king - and even if you do, you're now wondering if you're facing trips and drawing dead!

If you call out of position, you're maybe better off, as you can lead at the flop and get some info, but why not get that pre-flop?

[mrmuzeman]

why not junk it to a raise, as you would with say AQ or AJ

Yeah thats a good idea that is. A lot of people raise with AQ and AJ so I ditch my AK to that raise? I think not.

Raising it preflop is aggressive, but does buy you information about other hands who stay involved, as well as (probably) removing the threat of reverse domination and small pairs.

Not as much as you seem to think tbh. Youll still get pairs, picture cards, maybe even junk from time to time calling you, so the info you get is pretty limited a lot of the time. I for one would be sticking around with small pairs to a raise.

You seem to be eternally worried about people 'sucking out' on your AK by seeing a flop. If ive only committed 1bb im not that worried about that cos its hardly cost me f all. If I hit an A or K I get paid off by lesser hands a lot of the time, KQ is a big one. The whole thing with playing poker is knowing when your beat etc so if the flop comes perhapd giving someone 2 pair and that sort of thing I reckon ive got the judgement to know about it. If youve not got that good judgement then I guess raising with AK is a safer play but i trust mine.

In tournies raise away with AK I agree.

[christianu]

Isnt AK a drawing hand DOC?

Simply im only calling a 4 or 5xbb raise with AK for the same reasons id call a raise with 78s.

I would not want to re raise out of position with AK, if the pot isnt raised before me ill raise it most of the time with AK, but id do the same with QK.. but I can easily throw this hand (AK) away, im not playing it like a monster.

As ive said before DOC, the way I play AK now works very nicely for me and ive tried lots of different ways of playing and ive played a fair few hands, more than doyle brunson i reckon eh muse.

Different strokes for different folks, i dont think there is a defiintite certain best play.

[christianu]

Well maybe not the same reason im calling with 78s, but if you get my drift.

[christianu]

Oh and raising with QK in the land of the un raised pot is probably more to do with my shorthanded games.

Muse once said something brilliant, Its not pre flop but post flop when he gets aggressive, im very much the same.. and as ive just seen him point out theres plenty more information to be had after the flop.

[mrmuzeman]

Muse once said something brilliant,

yeah once sounds about right

Docs got this picture framed and hanging above his computer desk btw

[christianu]

I heard a rumour Doc would rather have AK than AA.

[Doc]

Different strokes for different folks, i dont think there is a defiintite certain best play

Definitely!

If it works for you, then don't change it - I'm just trying to explore (all the time) what changes I might make to the way I play, so hence the discussion!

To take some specific points
"AK is just a drawing hand" - this applies to every hand to some extent. AA is a drawing hand if you're up against 6 or 7 other hands.

AK against the majority of hands is a big favourite. There are only 3 hands where you're in deep doo-doo, and another 3 where you're in significant trouble. It is also relatively easy to play after the flop. Even against any other pair it is only barely (if at all) an underdog.

However, the chances of AK winning decrease very rapidly with each extra hand it faces, which IMO, means you should thin out the field. Someone who calls my AK raise with 87s, QTs etc is going to lose a lot of money to me in the long run - i.e. they are making a mistake by calling. Someone who limps into the pot with me is probably doing the right thing, and crucially is progressively making it more correct for other limpers to come in. Even someone who calls with a small pair is going to have to fold to a continuation bet most of the time.

Cold-calling a reasonable raise with AK isn't a big deal for me against the right player, but I'm definitely going to re-raise a small raise - 3BB or less - against most players.

My key point I guess, is that I really want to discourage a family pot, if I can, if I have AK. The reading of other peoples hands post flop is much more difficult in a multi-way pot with no raise pre-flop. People can (correctly) call with a huge range of hands.
Say the flop comes KcTc8h and it is 5 way with you on the button and no raise - entirely possible!
First player opens for half the pot and 2 players call, you raise and everyone calls. Are you up against 88, T8, KQ, K8s, a straight draw (gutshot or open ended), flush draws etc?
Much of the time the flop won't hit you at all, but you might have taken it down with a pre-flop raise.

AKo is about 17% against 9 random hands - about the same as TT - except that it is MUCH easier to play post-flop. A pair of Jacks is 19%, QQ 22%, KK 26%, AA 31% for comparison. AKs is 21% by the way. If you raise therefore you're bringing money into the pot while you're ahead, and on average, those who call are making a mistake

[aliensyndm]

The amount of people I see raising with AK and playing terrible is always amusing, in fact AK in bad players hands is quite profitable for other people. Everyone seems to be under this delusion that AK is a great hand you should raise raise raise with it. Remember you are only gonna flop at least an ace or king 1 in 3 times. That leaves alot more times where you hit nothing, what you doing then continuation betting into the pot with nothing ?
A very common occurence at low limit NL cash is - guy raises to 3 or 4 BBs, 1 or people call, flop comes basically anything other than an ace or king, J74 say and then the raiser puts in a weak bet like 1/3 of the pot, it's almost like announcing their AK missed. Someone calls or better still check raises if they have connected. Raiser calls and turn is a blank and continues to fire off more cash with nothing other than AK.
Raises pre-flop don't discourage anyone anyway, people will still call with AQ AJ 78, everything and anything. You don't gain any information by raising most of the time, but you do give away some about your own hand.
AK is a good hand in tournaments cos it can play against almost anything in all in situations. QQ and downwards it's slight underdog, 2 lower cards it's slight favourite. It's fecked by AA of course but still around 1 in 4 against KK.
As they say, bad raising hand but good re-raising hand.
But playing cash games is different story from tournaments ! I mean sure if you raise with AK in a tournie and miss the flop and end up all iin on the flop against someone with a pair you've a pretty decent chance of outdrawing them yeah but in cash games that is gonna cost you money.

[Doc]

I agree that making a weak bet like 1/3 pot announces you've missed your hand, but that is bad play on the flop. If you're just up against 1 player, then you've got to look at the flop in terms of what your opponent might have - there is a decent chance the flop has missed him too.

I disagree about gaining information - you've got rid of most players, and can put those remaining on at least some sort of hand. If you're up against one of those loons who plays (even to a raise) virtually any two cards, then you'll never know what he has, but at least you've made him pay to see the flop when you are almost certainly ahead - that makes you money.