Call or Fold?

[Hippy Dave]

BB: $11.45
UTG: $4
CO: $3.85
Hero (BTN): $9.85
SB: $4.55

UTG posts $0.10
Pre-Flop: Q Q dealt to Hero (BTN)
UTG raises to $0.20, CO folds, Hero calls $0.20, SB folds, BB calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.65) A 9 Q (3 Players)
BB checks, UTG bets $0.10, Hero raises to $0.50, BB folds, UTG calls $0.40

Turn: ($1.65) 4 (2 Players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $1.10, UTG calls $1.10

River: ($3.85) 8 (2 Players)
UTG bets $2.20 and is All-In


Ok, I'm sure some of you would have played it differently on earlier streets, I'm pretty happy though with my play, so let's try to ignore that even if you think it was shit.

Have just sat down, and not played with the guy before. All I want to know is on the river, call or fold, and what does he have?

[kristobal]

even if he holds J10 your betting on each street doesn't give him right odds to call - it's a call for me anyway

if he had J10 -hmm, if you raised pre-flop you wouldn't have that problem

[Doc]

it is a no brain call IMO

The hands that are beating you are JT and AA. It costs you 2.20 to potentially win a pot of $6.05
You only have to win 27% of the time to make a profit. Against an unknown player I'd always call that. Even knowing the player, with that betting sequence I'd still call.
I don't think he has AA - he wouldn't (or at least shouldn't) push the river. I think you see 99, AQ, A8, A9, Q9 or even a bluff with something like KT or AT easily often enough to call.

My guess is he has AT or A8 :D

[Hippy Dave]

I folded.


Pre flop I couldn't put him on anything, having just joined the table.

Check-call on river, and then check-call again on turn screams 1 of 2 things to me at these low levels at least. Draw or monster.

So now I'm thinking either AA 99 or JT, with JT easily the most likely.

Then comes the 8 and the river shove. I disagree with you on the river shove Doc, with his stack and the pot size that's going to be a standard play with any big hand.

[kristobal]

that's ultra tight Dave

anyway what did he have ?, I'd put him on 99 as many players only min. raise med. and small pairs. Did he show his hand?

[Hippy Dave]

No, he didn't show. JT just looked such a strong possibility to me.

[Doc]

well look at it from his point of view. If he has some hand like AT or AJ he may figure he has little chance of winning a showdown. However, he wins the $6 every time you fold. If you don't know him and he doesn't know you he might get you off a lot of hands that beat him - e.g. AK etc. He'll have decent fold equity here and if he has a moderately strong hand like AQ, A9 or 99 then he also has some showdown equity against your range.


As a general point I don't like the way you played it. I'd always raise in that situation pre-flop.
On the flop any K, J, T or 8 completes a lot of draws that may call your flop bet (which should therefore be much bigger IMO). Even an ace isn't ideal if he calls a flop bet.

The small size of your flop bet also doesn't help. He makes a gay bet into a 3 way pot and you raise him, but give him odds of over 3-1!! He's quite justified in calling your range with a lot of hands and you still know little about his hand, while possibly giving him a chance to draw out on you.

The turn is more of the same. You've had a great card has hit and he has checked, but he has shown on the flop that he wants to play, at least a little. A bigger flop bet (to maybe 80) would mean you'd have a pot of $2.45 now if he called and you also know he is a little stronger, but almost certainly on a draw. That gives you a great position now. He is now not getting implied odds on any draw, so you have more or less the whole range of bets to draw him in. I'd be putting in maybe just over half his stack - about $1 to $1.50. Now he either has to fold or pot-commit. And no matter what happens you're happy - you're either taking the pot down now, or getting all his money in when you have the best hand (assuming he doesn't have AA)

[Doc]

No, he didn't show. JT just looked such a strong possibility to me.

Monsters under the bed.

What do you think he put you on? Quite possible a lone ace. Many players would play it that way. He may well have had A8 and be hoping to trap you with AK, AJ or AT

[Hippy Dave]

Originally Posted by Doc

Monsters under the bed.

What do you think he put you on? Quite possible a lone ace. Many players would play it that way. He may well have had A8 and be hoping to trap you with AK, AJ or AT

The majority of players at $0.05/$0.10 just play the strength of their hand, he wouldn't care what I had.

[Doc]

Agree to a large extent, which is why I think

a) you should bet differently (i.e. more aggressively) before that
b) you have to give more weight to hands like A8, A9, 99 and even 88. He has to show you precisely JT or AA (which I'd massively discount based on his play) more than 73% of the time for you to lose.

I just don't believe that will happen, and on those rare occasions it does, you don't lose quite that much as you have much better information about the way he plays and can adjust in future.

Not many players will raise JT UTG in my experience, especially a min-raise. That speaks against JT for me. I'd say it is much more likely a weak ace hand (which fits the A8 perfectly)

[kristobal]

Originally Posted by Hippy Dave

The majority of players at $0.05/$0.10 just play the strength of their hand, he wouldn't care what I had.

that's the thing, I also play at this level and I see players get attached to top pairs, thay also trying fancy moves like big bluffs in Phil Ivey style so when I have set of queens I'll always try to get all my opponents money in the pot, it's simply very strong hand and will win for me most of the time

here's the similar hand I played last night, at one point I also thought I was behind but I'd always pushed all-in anyway.


Hand #1506011953000917: Paris 11953
Seat 1: Dogh*** (9.24 in chips)
Seat 2: BamB*** (9.77 in chips)
Seat 3: vote*** (11.10 in chips)
Seat 4: Okic*** (10.00 in chips)
Seat 5: tibu*** (12.00 in chips)
Seat 6: kristobalZ (9.50 in chips)
Seat 7: rick*** (4.79 in chips)
Seat 8: nsho*** (5.85 in chips)
Seat 9: the*** (1.30 in chips)
Seat 10: KenJ*** (11.62 in chips)
kristobalZ: posts small blind $0.05
rick***: posts big blind $0.10
Dealt to kristobalZ [ Qh Qd ]
nsho***: calls
the***: folds
KenJ***: folds
Dogh***: folds
BamB***: folds
vote***: folds
tibu***: raises to $0.45
kristobalZ: calls

here I might get criticized for not re-raising but I wanted to disguise my hand ( lot's of people calls with rubbish when in blinds position) and hopefully get BB to call as well.


rick***: calls
nsho***: folds
@@@ F_L_O_P @@@ [ 8d Qc As ]
kristobalZ: checks
rick***: checks
tibu***: bets $1
kristobalZ: calls

no reraise as I want rick behind me to call


rick***: folds
# # # TURN # # # [ 3s ]
kristobalZ: checks
tibu***: bets $2
kristobalZ: raises to $6


here I thought I raised too much ( wanted $5 but it's 3rd day in my life I'm multitabling - 4 tables, so it wasn't easy ) and when he called I thought he had AA or at least AQ


tibu***: calls
&&& RIVER &&& [ 4s ]
kristobalZ: is all in 2.0500
tibu***: calls
*** SHOW DOWN ***
kristobalZ: shows [ Qh Qd ] (Three of a Kind, Queens )
tibu***: mucks
kristobalZ wins $18.60 with Three of a Kind, Queens
tibu***: mucks [ Ac, Kc ] (Pair) - and that's the whole truth about $0.05-$0.10 level

Doc, what you think about this hand ? - should've raised before the flop? was raise on the turn too big or ok?

[Doc]

I re-raise pre-flop. Its a button raise from him and lots of the time its a simple blind steal. Ax will figure strongly in his range though and I don't want an ace falling when I'm out of position. When a hand is folded to the button, a lot of players are going to flat call AA or KK and try and make some money from them, rather than give the blinds an easy fold. So I'm less worried about those hands with regard to re-raising. Were the player UTG or in early position, or a noted rock, then I'd probably flat call as often as I'd raise.
Flop is ideal for you. Check-call is ok, but you can argue for a check raise or a weak lead.
Turn raise is fine. He is getting 2-1 to call and will wonder what you have. You've also helped commit him regardless on the river

[christianu]

Originally Posted by Hippy Dave

BB: $11.45
UTG: $4
CO: $3.85
Hero (BTN): $9.85
SB: $4.55

UTG posts $0.10
Pre-Flop: Q Q dealt to Hero (BTN)
UTG raises to $0.20, CO folds, Hero calls $0.20, SB folds, BB calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.65) A 9 Q (3 Players)
BB checks, UTG bets $0.10, Hero raises to $0.50, BB folds, UTG calls $0.40

Turn: ($1.65) 4 (2 Players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $1.10, UTG calls $1.10

River: ($3.85) 8 (2 Players)
UTG bets $2.20 and is All-In


Ok, I'm sure some of you would have played it differently on earlier streets, I'm pretty happy though with my play, so let's try to ignore that even if you think it was shit.

Have just sat down, and not played with the guy before. All I want to know is on the river, call or fold, and what does he have?

Omg lol you have to call at the end. Wow.

100% re-raise pre flop every time as well.

Doc is right, the odds you are getting are sick with such a big hand as well.

here I might get criticized for not re-raising but I wanted to disguise my hand ( lot's of people calls with rubbish when in blinds position) and hopefully get BB to call as well.

Re raise pre flop, not sure why you would want to be 3 way with QQ out of position so badly. Not a great spot.

No matter what reasoning you have calling here is wrong.

here I thought I raised too much ( wanted $5 but it's 3rd day in my life I'm multitabling - 4 tables, so it wasn't easy ) and when he called I thought he had AA or at least AQ

Stop putting everyone on monsters everybody! lol, $6 is the least id raise to, never mind wanting to raise less. Doesnt that leave you $2 behind? Why not just shove.

and that's the whole truth about $0.05-$0.10 level

Well he had AK, i would have gone broke too there.

[kristobal]

Originally Posted by christianu

Re raise pre flop, not sure why you would want to be 3 way with QQ out of position so badly. Not a great spot.

No matter what reasoning you have calling here is wrong.

You're right about this, it's just that many times when I re-raise with a big hand everyone simply fold - but I guess it's better to take the pot like that then loose to A-rag

Originally Posted by christianu

Stop putting everyone on monsters everybody! lol, $6 is the least id raise to, never mind wanting to raise less. Doesnt that leave you $2 behind? Why not just shove.

- can't agree with this one, I think many players would fold to an all-in bet , I like playing on each street, I like giving my opponents good odds to call when I have a monster, I think if I just shoved that would've scared him away - how many times I've read not to loose with a top pair, it's just a pair! , the other thing was that the average winning hand in poker is 2 pair, maybe not average but most frequent - so having all that in mind it's hard to call a shove on the turn with just a pair! Or not? How does it look statisticlly - anyone knows?

[christianu]

how many times I've read not to loose with a top pair, it's just a pair!

In high aggression games top pair is the nuts, you cant really generalise like that!

Go broke with top pair all the time, and don't feel bad about it.

If i raise with AK and the flop comes A 7 2 etc.. then i have the nuts.

I like playing on each street

Well once you make that raise you are commited 100% to the hand with $2 left, it plays the same trust me, if anything a shove looks weaker than a raise like that.

You don't wanna be min raising as well mate, i take it you're pretty new to the game? Best way to learn is to keep playing and read the 2+2 forums, dont bother with books.