Folding KK preflop?

[christianu]

Alien the flush hunting fish

[MJR]

I dont mind the fold in a ten handed game. I play 5 handed only on boss media, and in that kind of game, its nigh on impossible barring a moment of divine intervension.

Back to the hand, that raise of 150 is a bit suspicious from your man. Almost a minraise considering its the fourth bet.......if you take the other two kings out of the equation, its either queens or aces assuming hes not a complete muppet overplaying AJ

So yeh, dont mind either pushing or folding here....though personally i would have put my head down and charged into kings vs aces for the 70th odd time

[raisin man]

Just catching up on the poker forum so just came across this thread.

Jezza, I think that was a good fold. I'm not putting all that money in a hand where the opther guy has a good chance of having AA. Especially since he was the original raiser.

But seriously, wtf are you sitting down with $1000 for. Man if I had that much money in my account then I'd cash it out and head out and spend it.

Maybe thats why I'm not a pro though, lol

Last night sat up really late, went from 200 to 350 to 150 to 200 in the space of 5 hours, really pissed me off.

[mrmuzeman]

But seriously, wtf are you sitting down with $1000 for.

He wouldve only come in with $500 Raisin

[christianu]

Ohhhhhhhh thats our Jez

[raisin man]

Originally Posted by mrmuzeman

He wouldve only come in with $500 Raisin

Only?

[Jezza]

Ok cheers for all the replies guys.....I'll try and give my thoughts about the hand.

Firstly the guy who opens is deepstacked as well - I have to be careful about when I play a big pot with him but obv I figure KK to be best at the moment - my first thoughts are to reraise him when it comes round to me and play from then on. He's not stupid and opening UTG like that is range is probably AQs+ and TT+. Now Grand reraises before it gets to me! This guy is not stupid either, like I said earlier in thread he's a winning TAG. This is either AK/QQ/AA I am pretty sure. Highly unlikely he has exactly the other two KK (possible tho I suppose) and from what I know of him he would flat call with JJ/TT here - I think he would flat call with AK also but I wouldnt put it past him to reraise. Now I have a real decision here when it comes to me - how to play my Kings. For a second I think about flat calling the lot but I see this as a bad play in this scenario. Smooth calling a raise with KK/AA is good for deception purposes under the right conditions but here its no good I think. Most importantly I will be in with a hand I love against 2 deep stacked opponents and could really pay the price for it given UTGs stack. Granted I have position and cold calling will really make them scratch their heads as to what I have (They would put me on QQ I guess) but I am just pricing them in against me if i do and inviting both of them to outdraw me - I figure I have to go ahead and put in the third raise regardless of how face up this makes my hand (because surely they know I have KK/AA if I do). Now I messed up a little here going back over the hand, usually I advocate putting a big bet/raise in if you decide to go aggressive but here I only made a smallish reraise. I basically wanted to get UTG out and keep GrandX in (Barring a Q or A on the flop I would play a big pot with him if he called). UTG folds as expected and wtf? Grand comes back with a medium 4th raise??? He is no donkey that is for sure - if he had been an idiot I would push all in but hes good enough to know I have KK/AA probably and still wants more money in preflop? This really looked like AA to me. I figured QQ or AK is definately just flat calling my raise here (either that or they go all in, he CERTAINLY is not putting in a smallish reraise back again with those hands) and he is just dragging my money in here by putting in a raise I cant fold to. If you look at the stack sizes and raise I have to call I now have bad odds to play to flop a set given I think he has AA (his 4th raise is pretty well calculated in this respect, and hes just made it enough so I am pretty much committed to call his last 250). So my decision is to go all in if I believe he has QQ/AK or fold now. I think it thru and no way does he make that 4th raise with either of those hands I am sure, so I fold - annoying but correct I think (and thanks to all who agreed with me - im glad you did!)

Alien I disagree when you say the fact he is a TAG pro means it is less likely to be AA. You have to consider here the game situation - its not HU/Short handed where preflop representations can be made like this when quite often the representers are full of shit . If this guy had been an idiot I would be FAR more likely to push all in, infact I am sure I would have but hes not. The thing here is not only do you have to work out what he has, but you also have to work out what he thinks I have - there can be no doubt in my mind that he knows I have KK probably (an idiot probably wouldnt know this) and thus he isnt trying to push me off it, hes just trying to sucker my KK in as best he can.

I agree muse when you say my 3rd raise was shite it was . I should have raised more, I was trying to strike a balance between dragging one player in and knocking the other out + get more money in preflop. A raise to 160 would have been much better (although maybe I got lucky here that I saved a bit of cash because I fcukd up - does not change the fact that take this situation again after the raise and reraise that I should raise back more)

Doc - he isnt running a squeeze play I am sure for the reasons I outlined to alien, nor is he trying to win the pot there and then, he fully expects me to call that rereraise for whats in the middle and what I have. If he has QQ he either flat calls or goes all in, the same with AKs - its the size of his 4th raise thats the key for me in this situation. Thanks for doing the maths tho, you say I have to be over 80% sure to fold, I thought about this afterwards and I reckon he has AA there about 90% of the time if not slightly more.

MJR welcome to the forum btw I dont think I have seen you around before - it is a sickener when you see the cards turned over isnt it

Raisin, I didnt sit with 1000, I sat with 500 which is the max buy in for that stake (2/5$NL on crypto) - I had just been winning that session is all. I dont really spend money to be honest whatever I win I just gamble with . I have worked my way up there from lower stakes so I dont really see it as money anyway, just gambling tokens

Actually as a side point that is really true now, I found I had a change about a year back which makes poker seem like a video game now instead of gambling, its much easier to not get worked up over bad beats and over exicted about winning if its just numbers and not money - that doesnt mean either you or I should be stupid with the amounts we gamble tho, bankroll requirements are VERY important.


Cheers again for the replies everyone,

Jez

[Jezza]

Oh yeah one last point - a way Grand could have busted me

Given that he probably puts me on KK if he flat calls there with his AA and takes a chance then he probably doubles up for the max. Had he flat called I would have put him square on two hands QQ/AK and barring an A or Q on the flop I would have set him in if he checked to me. Also given he thinks I have KK had a K flopped he could have checked to me to see what I do and make a decision then. It takes a lot of balls to risk a big pot by playing it like that but in his shoes there it would have been the perfect play against me.

Jez

[mrmuzeman]

Actually as a side point that is really true now, I found I had a change about a year back which makes poker seem like a video game now instead of gambling, its much easier to not get worked up over bad beats and over exicted about winning if its just numbers and not money - that doesnt mean either you or I should be stupid with the amounts we gamble tho, bankroll requirements are VERY important.

I like the sound of that, its certainly how I see the cheap low limit games on the £25 and $50 games. Not so for bigger games than that yet tho they still get the old heart pumping.

Also Jez a better way to stack you there would be very easy without getting tricky. Just go all in. If Grand had gone all in I dont believe you would have folded KK for fear of making a mistaken laydown and thats the play I would have made in his situation for sure 100%. Thats why I said his play was poor earlier on, as the raise 99% telegraphs his hand for AA. If he goes all in your not sure if its AA, KK or QQ.

If he goes all in there wouldve been $700 in there with $400 for you to call. I mean your gona be thinking shit it might be AA here but for not far off 2/1 odds I wouldnt fold KK there. The board would have come 66KK6 anyway and I would have won imo.