ACE-KING (The death of many a poker player)

[aliensyndm]

And the killer for hands like K2 suited is when they flop a king and can't get away from it. That's when the AK scoops up the cash. You gotta realise if a king is flopped and you have K2 you're only likely to be getting action from someone else who has a king and they are gonna have a better kicker.
Sometimes you might find yourself in that position being the big blind so it's worth taking note of. People that call with hands like K6 and happily call down bets from AK when a king flops are the kinda people you want on your table. Yes it's a sore one when they flop 2 pair or they hit their rag on the river etc but long term they make you cash.
Also if you have K2 or 92 in the big blind and flop K92, ie 2 pair you must play it aggressively as it's still reasonably easily outdrawn, especially if a few people are in the pot against you.
Also be careful if it's a hand like K2 and you flop KQ2 as KQ is the kinda hand people play and you are of course in big trouble there.

[mrmuzeman]

Fair dos Gett1n

I dont know what stakes you play but i can assure you people do call with these hands in 1/2 etc and im sure theres even the odd numpty in a 2/4 game who would as well (Jezza could probly tell more about that - hed probly be the one playing 63 ). Id say unless youre playing 5/10 you would see people calling with any crap, so maybe you should think about raising with AK more? Unless you play 5/10 of course as I dont know.

Still personally Im not too worried about the pish hands cos its the risk inherent in poker that you may have to lay down a good hand if you think someones got 2 pair or woteva.

[Jezza]

I will have to disagree with you here doc on a few things (but I can see your point on others)

Firstly the thinking about hands that can make very strong holdings (pocket pairs hitting sets, connectors hitting straights etc) being a lot better multiway. This is obviously the case yes, if you have the nutflush you would far rather face a field of 9 opponents than just a lone one! However it is not nearly as big as a mistake in NL to play these hands against 1 opponent than it is in limit (where I think this thinking originates). The point being implied odds. In limit poker, there is of course only a fixed amount someone can put in the pot(excluding games with the no cap on the river rule), and hence a fixed value you can win from a single player. So flopping a set against him is not nearly as profitable as it probably would be against multiple opps. Of course in NL this is completely different. You have HUGE implied odds every hand (your opponents entire stack). Your thinking in calling raises with these sorts of hands should not be along the lines of questioning if you are going to get multiway action (and then your odds for calling going up) - ALTHOUGH IT IS STILL A FACTOR OBVIOUSLY - It should be along the lines of questioning how DEEP your opponents stack is. Therefore if you hit your set/straight/whatever you can win the whole lot (could be as much as 500bbs depending on the game) and multiway action does not matter to you a jot!

Anyway I am digressing a little, onto more AK arguments.

However, limping into a multiway pot with AK isn't too clever IMO - Say the flop come K63 rainbow. Yippee you think. Well you could easily be behind to the guy who played K6s, or 63s due to the large number of callers. When you limp you are providing odds for hands like those to limp also - I want to get them out pre-flop or at least make them pay (incorrectly) to stay in.

I disagree here...dont you WANT The guy with K6 to be in? It is more likely you will get the K just to flop than the K flops plus his 6 (and not your ace). If he is bad enough to be fishing around with K6s in a full ring game he is certainly not going to be folding top pair to huge bets is he? Of course if you play against a large field you have to be adept at judging if your hand is good or not. Many times people will inded flop something weird like that whilst you get an OK hand like TPTK. You have to be able to stay out of trouble in these situations and not be punished, or at least not as punished as you do to mr K6 when just a K high flop occcurs.

Also by raising with AK in early pos in a full ring game, you get the people (who would have happily limped before) to fold their A10 and AJ type hands (K10 and KJ as well obv). They will never put you on AK if you both hit top pair, but if you have raised preflop they might not even be in in the first place! (And if they are, very wary that you have AK).

I do agree with you Doc when you say that you have the best hand preflop, hence make people pay to "suck out" effectively. I can, of course, see the logic in that statement but I feel sometimes in full ring there are more long term rewards when you get the key pay off flops by letting people see the flop with this hand multiway.

but I think the answer is a bigger raise pre-flop!

I definately disagree big style with this. If you are going to raise then make it the same amount every time for whatever hand you raised with (or pot sized) because otherwise your hand becomes see through.

Jez

[Doc]

hmmmm - lots to think about there.

Good points on the implied odds Jez. In general of course you'll have bigger implied odds the more that are in - but the point is the implied odds and not the players per se, and as you say the relationship is not as clear as it would be in limit poker.

I tend to play most of my NL (in fact most of my poker) in STT format, so I guess that affects my views, although at the early stages, the differences shouldn't be so stark - bar a few cases.

I like the Sklansky view on this - "Anytime you get an opponent to put money in the pot where he shouldn't, you benefit, anytime you don't - he benefits". We can all agree that (usually - I'll come back to that later) people shouldn't be limping in with K6s - if you don't charge him for this, he is benefitting - if you do charge him and he calls you benefit.
I'd be inclined to the view that if you let in 'suck out' hands then you suffer more than you gain in their loose calls - but that will I suppose depend a lot on your games - it can't be definitive either way. In general though I'd be more worried about hitting a flop like AT3 with my AK and someone else hitting trip 3's or two pair with their AT.

Regarding hands like K6s - in late position (preferably on the button) with several callers these are great hands to limp with IMO, IF (and it is an if) you can happily fold top pair (as you have no kicker). You are looking to make a flush or maybe two pair and someone is likely to pay you off!

Finally as for the raising amount - I'd make two points.
1) In many situations your opponents aren't familiar with you are even don't really watch you that much so it is easy to overplay the deception angle IMO.
2) Assuming you are in a situation where you do need some deception, you can easily do that by varying your raise amounts on ALL hands (e.g. sometimes you might raise 2BB with AK, sometimes up to 8BB) - but your average raise with AK will be bigger. Similarly I'm going to raise bigger (on average) with JJ than I will with AA - as I am (much) more vulnerable and want to play against fewer players.

[mrmuzeman]

I think it all comes down to game selection in the end Doc. As you say you raise big with JJ. Im a cash game player and I pretty much never raise with that hand. Its what makes no limit so sweet different ways of playing can work for different people

[Doc]

amen to that sir!

[moDtheGod]

Edit: never mind, I misunderstood something and then re-read it. It makes sense now.

Heh.

[christianu]

Completely changed the way I played AK tonight, was playing 4 short handed NL cash games for about 4 hours so I got a fair few hands in and every single time I had AK I limped into the pot, most of the time someone else would raise me and as has been mentioned my AK is disguised.

Instead of raising in early position and being faced with tough decisions a lot of the time It was a lot more relaxing and easy and I was quite passive in letting my oppenent do the betting and I think its the best way for me.

No more raising 4 or 5xbb with Ak as I usually do and instead ill limp a lot more.

Going back to what Muse said a page back with 10 10 and JJ 90% of the time im limping with these hands as its hard to make them profitable raising, and if you do it would only be slightly. I've turned into a loose passive player

[mrmuzeman]

Chris

Yeah no probs with the limping (altho id raise with them a bit more in the short handed games you play) but dont be passive sunshine!

[aliensyndm]

Aye be aggressive moonlight.

[mrmuzeman]

Sorry that was the cockney in me coming out. Dammit that sounds a bit dodgy too eh

[mrmuzeman]

Ooh Beefcakes.

[Hippy Dave]

Since the forum re-organisation I've been looking through some of these old poker posts (did TDP really exist in 2005 by the way? Time flies ), and think that this deserves to be re-visited, one of the best threads in TDP poker.

Personally, until reading this, I'd never really even considered anything other than a raise with AK (unless in the blinds where I'll check/limp a lot of hands for the disguise, and not wanting to committ too many chips out of position).

I have to admit, in the dark days of my poker life (the manic-agressive period ) AK was just the kind of hand I would overplay, and lose my stack with.

I'm a lot more passive pre-flop these days with this holding, and as a result it is quite common to take stacks of people playing AJ etc when the flop comes Axx. Of course, you have to be more wary of flops like AQx AJx ATx, but at the end of the day you have a drawing hand preflop, you might as well draw with it while it's as cheap as possible.

[christianu]

I'm a lot more passive pre-flop these days with this holding, and as a result it is quite common to take stacks of people playing AJ etc when the flop comes Axx. Of course, you have to be more wary of flops like AQx AJx ATx, but at the end of the day you have a drawing hand preflop, you might as well draw with it while it's as cheap as possible.

Have to disagree entirely.

I think its ridiculous not to raise AK pre flop, if your not raising this hand then your only raising such a low % of hands that your action will be limited and your oppenents will know what a nit you are.

I would say NEVER limp pre flop with any hand, unless there have been 3 or 4 limpers and you have like 55.

Even if there are 5 limpers and you have 88 raise 10-12bb, take the blinds or get the pot heads up, at this point cos your behind the limpers you will most likely be in position and you can put your oppenent on a quite accurate range of hands, low pp and sc. An A x x flop is great for you to cbet at, most flops are, your in position and in control of the hand.

If you get 4 callers fine, your in position most of the time again, have control of the hand, it will often get check to you and you have a hand that can flop a monster here.

So like i said, never limp pre flop ever.