Newcastle United - A Big Club?

[Wittmann 44]

Form is temporary, class is permanant.

Form can and does become class given enough time and consistency. Past achievements might make you a big club 50 or 10 or 5 years ago. It doesn’t do much for you now. All well and good having a glorious history but without a similar shining present all it gets you is tired old football chants. See Nottingham Forest.

G14 is just another cartel keen on keeping other potential entries out. I wouldn’t rate into the exclusion of a particular club from it as meaning anything. G14 view Chelsea as upstart nouveau riches but that doesn’t make them a small club.

The European Cup example for Ajax as a big club against Arsenal doesn’t make them a big club today in my view. Back when they won it perhaps. Is there anyone who really thinks Ajax are a bigger club than either Chelsea or Arsenal? How many players in their prime do you get going from Ajax to either of those two and how many going back? Ajax peaked well over a decade ago. Right now they're a finishing school for the real big clubs. Also by using European Cup wins as a yardtsick of being a "big club" Benefica and Nottingham Forest and Steaua Bucharest are at least as big as Arsenal.

Right now Chelsea are a big club. Historically they were not and quite possibly in 10 years time they’ll be slumming it with Leeds or Sheffield Wednesday. As of right now however they are in the elite. They’ve won the League twice in a row, will finish second this year and have exited the Champions League to the winners and the finalists in the last two seasons. Add to that unmatched buying power and a large fanbase.

[all_funkt_up]

This is the blinkered view of football that most football fans have. They think the world started with Sky sports.

Anyway, we both have differing opinions on what constitutes a big club. I would say that Ajax are a bigger club than Chelsea - every day of the week. The history, the players, the achievements far outweigh anything Chelsea (est 2005) have ever achieved. Thats not set in stone and chelsea could overtake them at some point.

Lets not forget some of the great Ajax names - Cruijff, Van Basten, the De Boers & the Laudrups - not to mention the 3 consecutive European Cups. While they were panning people in Europe, Chelsea were scraping the barrel in the lower leagues.

[Wittmann 44]

This is the blinkered view of football that most football fans have. They think the world started with Sky sports.

My football worldview doesn’t start nor end with Sky Sports. I’ve been following it week in week out for over 20 years. I’m not disputing ffice:smarttags" />Ajax’s past greatness. I’m disputing their current greatness. fficeffice" />

We’re not comparing like with like. It’s like saying the Rolling Stones are a better band than Arctic Monkeys. Maybe they were 20 years ago but they’ve done nothing artistically valid for years. Great musical history but I wouldn’t buy an album by them now. Sure the Arctic Monkeys have only two albums but right now they’re a "big" band. Maybe they will be in 20 years time?

Time didn’t freeze back in the 70s or 80s. Greatness doesn’t stay forever. Sic Transit Mundi (all glory is fleeting) as the Romans would say.

[Batsinilas]

4 leagues,6 fa cups,1 fairs cup=11
chelsea has just passed them with 12 although you may say that it is chelsea with 8 and chelski with the rest.
and of course i am not saying that chelsea is a big club.
Newcastle always been around british football somehow

[Swooperman]

I still think what I thought last time this came up....that to be a big club you have to discern what the answer to the question would be if asked in a different era. I remember I worked out all the dates last time so wont bother again but if the question was asked around 1953-ish then teams like Villa & Preston would be infinitely bigger than Man Utd & Liverpool. Taking the last 50-odd years though then obviously Liverpool are a big club & much bigger than the 2 examples, certainly Preston anyway. I suppose Villa is a strange one as if Randy Lerner produces sustained money over the next few years then Villa could be hanging on the coat-tails & looking at that 4th Champions League place & if you get that a few years running then money & exposure is there.
Villa are a bad example tbh as we fluked a European Cup & AFU & me have knocked heads on this a few times as my answer always comes back as 'hold on, we've won the same trophies as you....just less'
Ajax have the pedigree, of that there is no doubt, but its been a while since Dutch football was in vogue & players tend to leave Holland rather than go there, so they cant be expected to be 'massive' at the moment. I think putting Ajax & Arsenal on a par is fair tbh, although its hard to bridge eras.

I think, if the question was asked in 25 years time, then the likes of Liverpool & Man United would be a yes as theyve had sustained success over a long period of time. I think they'd be in the same bracket as Bayern, Juve, AC Milan & Real Madrid. Arsenal would be a rung or 2 further down with the likes of Ajax, PSV & possibly Anderlecht (ooh, duck ) Its difficult to pigeonhole Chelsea tbh as the story has yet to run its course, but if youre going ojn number of trophies won then Villa would be well ahead of both Newcastle & Chelsea, but to call Villa a bigger club than chelsea at the moment would be ludicrous obviously

Newcastle are over-rated IMO. Yes theyve got a big fan base but thats partly explained by being a 1-city club. I find the 'best supporters' tag very hard to swallow.....not knocking their fans but are they really better than anyone elses ?? I think not. Every club has its die hards that stick with it through thick & thin & to those who think Newcastle are different I ask where were all the fans just before Keegan arrived in the early '90's & they were at the bottom of old Div 2 pulling in 9,000 ?? :wasntme Villa were setting attendance records all over the place when in the old Div 3 in the 70's but nobody was crowing we were the 'best supporters' around.....& quite rightly so as we're a fickle bunch of bastards at the best of times

[ONEDUNME]

Originally Posted by Wittmann 44

We’re not comparing like with like. It’s like saying the Rolling Stones are a better band than Arctic Monkeys. Maybe they were 20 years ago but they’ve done nothing artistically valid for years. Great musical history but I wouldn’t buy an album by them now. Sure the Arctic Monkeys have only two albums but right now they’re a " border="0" alt="" onload="NcodeImageResizer.createOn(this);" />

I like a lot of what you say Wittman but I disagree entirely with that paragraph.

It’s like saying the Rolling Stones are a better band than Arctic Monkeys

This discussion isn't about "better" it's about "bigger". Are the Rolling Stones a "bigger" band than the Arctic Monkeys. Obviously, yes.

We are comparing like with like. We are looking at a club over the course of its history and making judgements on their greatness. Obiously our judgement has to be made from a certain location in time and that may influence our individual opinions but my view is that to qualify as a "Big club" a team must have been a success in more than one decade, otherwise they're more akin to a one hit wonder. People have mentioned Nottingham Forest but all their success came over the same few years and went to prove how great "The Man" was, rather than how big that club was. All proven by what went on before and what has happened since. Likewise with Portsmouth. Two league titles and an FA cup in the 40s I think but fuck all since.

I have my own opinions on whether Arsenal and Chelsea can be classed as big in regard to this discussion but I can see how people might put forward arguments to say that they are. As for Newcastle that just baffles me.

[ONEDUNME]

Originally Posted by Batsinilas

Newcastle always been around british football somehow

Yes, you'll usually find them in the bottom half of the top division or in the lower leagues.

Blackburn have always been around British football too but only an idiot would call them a big club.

[Batsinilas]

TOP 20 ALL TIME TABLE AT TOP FLIGHT
S G W D L F A P
1. Everton 103 4024 1637 985 1402 6321 - 5683 4259
2. Liverpool 91 3640 1672 905 1063 5962 - 4508 4249
3. Arsenal 89 3640 1610 943 1087 5931 - 4659 4163
4. Aston Villa 95 3690 1530 851 1309 6159 - 5523 3911
5. Manchester United 81 3284 1501 830 953 5580 - 4364 3832
6. Newcastle United 76 3046 1209 738 1099 4716 - 4380 3156
7. Manchester City 77 3126 1164 778 1184 4730 - 4724 3106
8. Tottenham Hotspur 71 2900 1159 706 1035 4528 - 4173 3024
9. Sunderland 76 2960 1165 676 1119 4745 - 4552 3006
10. Chelsea 71 2904 1089 766 1049 4287 - 4310 2944
11. West Bromwich Albion 71 2766 1007 670 1089 4230 - 4408 2684
12. Sheffield Wednesday 66 2582 980 612 990 3976 - 4020 2572
13. Bolton Wanderers 67 2574 949 590 1035 3892 - 4108 2488
14. Blackburn Rovers 66 2492 945 592 955 4029 - 3994 2482
15. Derby County 64 2430 905 577 948 3744 - 3821 2387
16. Wolverhampton Wanderers 60 2308 918 518 872 3912 - 3748 2354
17. Sheffield United 59 2318 861 552 905 3499 - 3707 2274
18. Leeds United 50 2060 846 523 691 3079 - 2784 2215
19. Nottingham Forest 56 2178 800 549 829 3069 - 3171 2149
20. Middlesbrough 57 2286 784 568 934 3284 - 3554 2136
All-time tables of the English first level (English League Division One until 1991/92 and the Premier League since 1992/93). Based on two points per win.
it doesn't look like lower league and bottom table for me

[Batsinilas]

From rsssf.com

[ONEDUNME]

Just shows what you can do with statistics then doesn't it. If you take any notice of that pile of shit then Villa are better than Man United and that's just so wrong it's not worth going into.

it doesn't look like lower league and bottom table for me

That's because it doesn't show their performances in division 1 and division 2

In fact, the more I look at that table, the less I'm sure what it's supposed to be telling me If you're telling me that that includes Newcastle's four titles from a hundred years ago or whatever and they can still only just scrape in above Man City then It's not very impressive is it.

If you take into account that in the 40 years before the Premiership was formed they only managed to make it into the top 6 one time, it makes those tables look even more bollocks than they did at first glance.

Tell you what would be a better guide. Look at the actual league tables and you'll find they've spent more time outside the top half of the top league than they have inside it (which is exactly what I said).

[Batsinilas]

in fact includes everything from preston title to present and of course the four newcastle titles 100 years ago.So it is just first div games and team'srecords.
Being a big a club is not just looking last years table but knowing your history and respecting it.Historically they are a big club and you know that they always be there.From the moment premiership being established the gap between teams has grow dramatically not allowing most of the teams to enter the so-called top four.It so difficult now for teams like e.g Wolves to come and keep an eye for the title unless a bloody american or a southeasternasia buisnessman comes and spent millions to them.Top four means nothing.A big club with big history always will be a big club,winning or losing titles.
By the way with Keagan,Newcastle almost was there to win it and later losing two consecutive finals and being in top half most of the years.

[ONEDUNME]

Well I can see I'm wasting my time convincing you that Newcastle just aren't a big club then. Of course you are entitled to your opinion.

Unfortunately the poll shows that your opionion is pretty deluded.

The facts speak for themselves. Big ideas. Non entity.

[rene]

The next EPL club which is bought by a billionaire ...

More and more a playground for the snoops...

[ONEDUNME]

I've no idea what "snoops" are Rene but let's face it, Newcastle have been chasing the big time for decades. This may provide the necessary to kick on, otherwise they can hang around for another 20 years trying to get in the top ten every year and pretending to be a big club.

[GaNgStA kEeKs]

Id love to say the coming season is looking as good as it has for Newcastle for some time but i seem to be saying that every season so i wont waste my time