Wenger - Genius or Underachiever?

[all_funkt_up]

Interesting article from Brian Reade in the Mirror. Given the aforementioned paper's leaning's, it is written very much with red tinted glasses on, however the general point is one I have been raising for a while.

Wenger is seen as being a genius in the media whereas Benitez is derided by the footballing "experts" in this country. Arsenal are the media darlings, yet the bare facts of the matter are that they have won less than us in the last 4 years and ultimately, is football not about winning trophies?

Anyway, I found it interesting:

3 games when Wenger myths were exposed

Brian Reade

Arsene Wenger reckoned those three games with Liverpool would produce a moment of truth for his team.

But when the truth was delivered he tried to swat it away with a lie. An embarrassing one at that. Blaming the referee for the 4-2 Anfield defeat was a lamentable diversionary tactic. Wenger failed in Europe once again because his squad wasn't strong enough and his leadership wasn't good enough.

A few myths were shattered in those three meetings about a team whose free-flowing football is hailed as the best in the land. Easy on the eye it undoubtedly is. But you don't win games by adding up the passes and you don't win trophies without a killer's mentality.

In the two games at the Emirates, Arsenal failed to score from open play and at Anfield Pepe Reina was hardly tested outside the two goals. Over the two European ties the Gunners threw away a leading position three times. Each time, very cheaply.

Wenger has clearly needed to dip into his £60million war chest but refused to on the grounds it might upset the balance of a team of kids who were developing together. Another myth. Most aren't kids anymore. The average age of the starting line-up at Anfield was 25.

The Frenchman's real moment of truth will come tomorrow if he fails to beat Manchester United, meaning his trophy haul these past four years comprises one FA Cup. Benitez can match his FA Cup over the same period, throw in a European Cup and possibly add a second one next month. So how come Wenger is perceived in this country as one of the great managers of modern times yet Benitez is consistently derided?

The Spaniard recently masterminded wins home and away against Italian league leaders Inter Milan. Wenger beat their ageing Milan rivals (who lie 20 points behind them) in the San Siro but failed to do so at the Emirates. Yet whose achievement had English football in raptures? Wenger's of course.

The Arsenal boss rested five first-team regulars against Liverpool last Saturday to keep them fresh for Europe. It cost them the points which probably cost him the title but no one said a peep. When Benitez did that earlier in the season he was slaughtered for being a Tinkerman.

Liverpool clawed their way back into Wednesday's game via Sami Hyypia's free header at a corner, yet no one pointed out the deficiencies of Wenger's man-to-man marking system. Whenever Liverpool concede from a set-piece, Benitez is savaged for employing zonal marking.

Maybe it's time Benitez's legion of critics within football (and Anfield) faced their own moment of truth, and admitted he is not in his third Champions League semi-final in four years because he has pact with the devil, but because he is one of the modern game's great coaches, whose only failing in top-flight management has been an inability thus far to deliver the Premier League title to Anfield.

Maybe they should accept he's been up against clubs like Chelsea and United these past four seasons, with far greater resources, and recall it took Alex Ferguson seven years to win his first title.

Maybe, now the blood is drenching the boardroom carpets, they will realise civil war has been raging at Anfield all season, and Benitez has been caught in the middle. His mental health publicly questioned, judgments undermined, spending ridiculed and forward planning sabotaged. They even admitted to actively seeking his replacement.

Yet his reserve side has just walked the northern section of the Premier Reserve League league, he stands on the brink of a Champions League Final and qualification for next season's competition. I'm sure his many critics will dismiss it as a fluke. Just like his two La Liga titles and UEFA Cup wins were at Sevilla.

What did Gary Player once say about being lucky. The more he practised the luckier he became. In the biggest club competition in the world Rafa keeps getting plenty of practice.

Maybe one day he'll get lucky, unlike Wenger, and win it. Oh . . he already has.

3 games when Wenger myths were exposed - Mirror.co.uk

[GaNgStA kEeKs]

Cant be bothered reading the article (im a lazy bastard )

My view is he is both a Genius and an underachiever.

Genius in the way that he has now built 2 sides of quality. The first side he took a group of players that were surplus to requirements elsewhere but he gave them the belief to reach their potentials. Main one here being Henry who was a player going nowhere at Juve and stuck out on the wing where he doesn't play well (as shown for Barca this season when put out on the wing).

He got the mix spot on with the old team with Petit, Viera, Bergkamp etc.

He had success with them also.

This time around he is slowly building a new team back up. He has underachieved in the sense that he hasn't won a trophy for a few years but this team he is building is one i feel he thinks will dominate in a few years time and he probably believes they are overachieving right now and didn't expect them to progress as well as they have been.

A great talent he has too if knowing when to offload players. How many managers would have offloaded Henry at the time? Probably no other manager than Wenger and he looks to have been proven right with Henry not being the player he was.

You could add others to the list who were outstanding for Arsenal but have gone on to really struggle. Names such as Pires, Viera, Ljungberg to name a few.

For what he works with and spends etc compared with the top 4 i think he does a fantastic job.

Moans far too much though but then again, which managers dont when things dont go there way?

[ONEDUNME]

Genius. Top man, and the best thing from outside England that's ever happened to English football.

[ONEDUNME]

But when the truth was delivered he tried to swat it away with a lie. An embarrassing one at that. Blaming the referee for the 4-2 Anfield defeat was a lamentable diversionary tactic

You mean not giving a stone wall penalty and then giving a penalty that wasn't actually a penalty.

Yeah right

[ONEDUNME]

This cunt's not a Liverpool fan by any chance is he?

Just a guess as it stinks of the same bias that ooze out of every AFU post.

[all_funkt_up]

Originally Posted by ONEDUNME

This cunt's not a Liverpool fan by any chance is he?

Just a guess as it stinks of the same bias that ooze out of every AFU post.

I think he is mate, I know that the Mirror is very much a Liverpool paper and I suspect Brian Reade's leanings might be slightly in favour of our club.

In any case, a lot of what he says is valid - if not a little exaggerated.

Take Wednesday night for example, Phillipe Senderos was responsible for 2 of our goals - Torres' turn and shot and the Hyypia header. In my opinion, playing him was a mistake. He should have gone Toure/Gallas at the back and Eboue right back, with Walcott right midfield. Toure is ten times the defender Senderos is and had he been at the back, I cant see us getting those vital goals.

He's an excellent coach/director of football but I dont think he has the nouse in the transfer market (looking at purchasing the very top players) and dont think he has a 'big-game' mentality either.

The facts would seem to back this up also, no?

[keemanan]

He's neither AFU but I would pay to watch them play , I'd pay to watch Manure if I didn't loath them so much , also maybe Barca.
I wouldn't pay to watch Pool or Chelski (or citeh )

[all_funkt_up]

Yeah but as a football manager, is his job to play lovely football or to win trophies? When all the dust is settled, when all the trophies are won and we're sat in June looking forward t another season on the horizon - do you think that Arsenal fans will be happy with their style over substance? Assuming United win the league, Pompey win the cup, Spurs have already won the League Cup and its a given that we will win the European Cup - do you think Arsenal fans will be genuinely happy?

Am I missing something here? Football is about winning is it not?

[keemanan]

No , it's about entertaining the paying public or perhaps both as Man United have done.
Chelsea won their titles playing boring football . Abramovich got rid of Jose cos he wanted entertaining football. Football isn't chess , chess is chess

[ONEDUNME]

Originally Posted by all_funkt_up

Yeah but as a football manager, is his job to play lovely football or to win trophies?

That depends on what his remit is from the people who employed him.

Fans being what they are, they will moan about trophies but as Keema has said, if anyone wants to give up their seat there will be legions of football fans to take their place to watch their kind of football which has been the best to watch for the last five years or so.

Don't forget Chelsea got rid of a manager for doing exactly the opposite of what you're saying by winning trophies with football that was dreadful to watch.

Wenger went up in my estimation when he stuck by his word and played the same team in the cup final that had got him there (a so called "weakened team" that nobody else could manage to beat, even up to the final day).

Whichever team you support, it should be obvious to anyone that the man who wrote that article is a prize prick.

Example

Wenger failed in Europe once again because his squad wasn't strong enough and his leadership wasn't good enough.

Excuse me but weren't they just a matter of minutes from being "strong enough" and "good enough" to go through to the semi's? before, effectively, being knocked out by a penalty decision that could have gone either way. Had it gone the other way, he would be through and this worm would have had to make up some other sensationalist garbage to fill his column and chuck this pile of shit in the bin or, more likely, put it back in the draw where it's been waiting for the last year until he had an excuse to print it.

[ONEDUNME]

Fuck off Keema - you nipped in while I was typing

[crowie]

Originally Posted by all_funkt_up

Take Wednesday night for example, Phillipe Senderos was responsible for 2 of our goals - Torres' turn and shot and the Hyypia header. In my opinion, playing him was a mistake. He should have gone Toure/Gallas at the back and Eboue right back, with Walcott right midfield. Toure is ten times the defender Senderos is and had he been at the back, I cant see us getting those vital goals.

I am obviously not a football manager but I wonder if someone can explain to me what Wenger thinks he is doing in the point made by AFU above.

One of the most important parts of your team is surely the centre of defence. Be pish there and you will leak goals (look at Newcastle for years, soft as shit central defence).

So a couple of years ago Wenger bins his favoured right back, Lauren, for Eboue. A good player IMO, a wee bit hot headed but he fits in lovely to the Arsenal style of play. Eboue does the job for a couple of seasons and then he goes and buys Sagna in the summer. Competition for the right back slot you think as Justin Hoyte is possibly more a Carling Cup player.

He then slots Sagna in at right back and then bumps Eboue forward into the right side of midfield. Except he isn't a right sided midfield player. Look at any of Arenals recent big games. Time and time again the moves break down on Eboue because he simply doesn't have the awareness to play as a right winger. He gets in decent positions but his end product is pish, whether it be crosses or attempts on goal.

But to me its not a huge surprise as no matter how good he is as an attacking player, he is not going to be a top quality player in the final third of the pitch all the time.....which is what you would expect from a player playing for a big club in big games.

Anyway, Eboue isn't a right winger. But then Sagna gets crocked. Simple you think, Eboue back to his natural position, Arsenal two great attacking full backs, him and Clichy, life goes on. Except the tactical genius that is Wenger decides that he would rather rip his central defence too bits and stick Toure, who incidentally isn't a bad right back, at right back.....and bring in the Swiss Pascal Cygan.

Why?

Why when you have a natural right back do you take your central defence to bits and play your centre half at right back....and continue to play your right back at right wing?


And then, Senderos surprises no one when he is taken to bits at Anfield. So now the genius that is Wenger finally sees the light and he does what we all think he should.............he plays a young inexperienced central midfield player at centre half away to Man Utd??!! I mean WTF.

Song did a decent job for Charlton last season in midfield. He got rave reviews for his displays in the ANC earlier this year for Cameroon, where with little international experience, he shone as a holding midfield player.


Now I know Arsene sees these players train every day and knows more about them than me but surely surely your weakening your team by playing an out of depth right back at right wing, your best central defender at right back and a holding midfield player at centre half for a game away at Man Utd.

Maybe its just me but the words tactical genius don't spring to my mind when I think of Wenger at the current time.

[all_funkt_up]

Maybe its just me but the words tactical genius don't spring to my mind when I think of Wenger at the current time.

You made some excellent points in that last post, I'm proud to call you my father.

I just think that some of the decisions Wenger has made this season, in key games, has cost them dearly. The farce of playing Eboue right wing and as a consequence playing Senderos in the middle should be enough to cost him his job! Its like he enjoys making life more difficult for himself.

Why after 5 years, Senderos is still able the get a game at all is a mystery to me. Let alone given the job of marking Torres in a Champions League Quarter Final! Surely Arsene has had enough time to look at him and decide that he isnt good enough - plain and simple.

Plus, you spend around £10m on Walcott and then never play the cunt. When he did come on, he looked far and away the best player they had.

I think you're spot on about the Alex Song point as well. Again - its almost as if Wenger likes making life difficult for himself and creates problems that are solved by his 'genius' and speed of though. Why create yourself a hardship when a commonsense solution is there.

Another big mistake was failing to strengthen in January. They let Diarra go for a start to Pompey and then when some decent players were available in positions that needed to be strengthened, they failed to act. Imagine how much better Arsenal's title challenge would have been with any of: Jermain Defoe, Woodgate or Anelka. You can bet that Woodgate wouldnt have lost his man like that.

Wenger took a gamble, he gambled that his team would be strong enough to see out the season and that he was better off not strengthening in order to retain the unity among the players. I think he almost feels that to buy in January, is admitting you havent done your job properly. In that you didnt anticipate the challenges of the season properly and that you have in some way failed in you duty.

Last season, Ferguson wasnt afraid to strengthen come January. He brought in Henrik Larsson, this year Grant bought Anelka and Benitez bought Skrtl - buying in January isnt an admission of failure. Maybe its something Wenger wasnt afraid to do.

[christianu]

Not read most of this cos it will piss me off probably!!

People always forget life is just one big game of percentages. And you play by those percentages.

Arsenal could very easily be champions this year, they have just been unlucky.

I mean against United once again they were superb.

They absolutely outclassed Liverpool over 2 legs, we all saw who the better team there is. But its all just %'s and no matter how good you are there is a % that you wont win.

Unfortunately for them it was this time, say about 7/10 they would progress against Liverpool imo.

7/10 we wouldnt be calling wenger a donk, I feel really sorry for him cos he must be cursing his luck.

I still think backing Arsenal to win the league at the start of the season near 12/1 was one of the best bets I have ever done.

[christianu]

Plus, you spend around £10m on Walcott and then never play the cunt. When he did come on, he looked far and away the best player they had.

Thats why he does it though, because of the impact he makes when he comes on, he makes a massive impact every time.

Eventually he will start him but its like an ace up his sleeve to bring him on.

I mean lol 95/100 bringing walcott on would be a masterstroke against liverpool and that run goes down in history.

5/100 liverpool go ahead and its just so sick!!