Rangers fans

[rcgills]

Originally Posted by crowie

Why don't you go home
Why don't you go home
The slave trade is over
Why don't you go home


Or Liverpool to Steven Piennar

Apartheid is over..........

Banter? Acceptable to you? Any difference from "Ain't no black on the Union Jack, send the bastards back"? After all, all 3 songs are suggesting that someone leaves the country because of their race.

Now I'll start by saying I know very little about the famine, so if I'm wrong in what I'm saying, then I apologise, but... was the famine actually a result of the Irish being persecuted in any way? Or was it a "natural" (for want of a better word) phenomenon? The slave trade was wrong. Apartheid was wrong. Was there someone in the wrong in the famine? Was one group of people deliberately persecuting another? Because if they weren't, then I can't see how you can compare those things. The slave trade and apartheid were deliberately persecuting blacks. The famine didn't deliberately pick on Ireland, it just so happened to affect Ireland.

Now of course, all of that's not to say it's right to sing about it, but based on my already-confessed limited knowledge, I can't see how you can compare apartheid/slave trade/holocaust (as mentioned by Snodser) with the famine.

If there was some aspect of persecution to the famine, then ignore all the above, feel free to educate me, and I'll keep my nose out of this thread in future

[Betfly]

Wee snippet on Irish famine

The Irish catastrophe
The Great Famine in Ireland began as a natural catastrophe of extraordinary magnitude, but its effects were severely worsened by the actions and inactions of the Whig government, headed by Lord John Russell in the crucial years from 1846 to 1852.

'The Irish famine was proportionally more destructive of human life than...the famines of modern times.'
Altogether, about a million people in Ireland are reliably estimated to have died of starvation and epidemic disease between 1846 and 1851, and some two million emigrated in a period of a little more than a decade (1845-55). Comparison with other modern and contemporary famines establishes beyond any doubt that the Irish famine of the late 1840s, which killed nearly one-eighth of the entire population, was proportionally much more destructive of human life than the vast majority of famines in modern times.

In most famines in the contemporary world, only a small fraction of the population of a given country or region is exposed to the dangers of death from starvation or infectious diseases, and then typically for only one or two seasons. But in the Irish famine of the late 1840s, successive blasts of potato blight - or to give it its proper name, the fungus Phytophthora infestans - robbed more than one-third of the population of their usual means of subsistence for four or five years in a row

BBC - History - The Irish Famine

[Snodser]

Well done betfly, I was wondering where to start!
Without turning the place into a lecture hall .

Unfortunately its BBC, presenting a more sanitized version of the facts.

So I will just add that the pop. was approx 8 million, most living on lands owned by absentee landlords (have to say ther were some good eggs in the basket, just not enough).
There was plenty of food in the country but this was exported to england & elsewhere. Farming was strictly subsistence bar crops grown to pay the rent & with no potatoes there was nothing to eat. The famine is behind the start of huge Irish communities in the US, UK and elsewhere.

After the famine there was approx 4.5 million people in the country. The rest were dead or deported. (est 1.5 mill dead)

The most infamous solution was proposed in the house of lords where it was suggested that a "mixture of rotten potatoes and grass made for a most nourishing meal".

I'll stop now, but if, like me, you love history(not just irish history) you'll find plenty out there.

Google here we come

[Betfly]

I know there are plenty more aggressive stories Snod but figured BBC is an acceptable source.

If folk want to know more I'm sure they'll have a look themselves!

[crowie]

Originally Posted by rcgills

Now I'll start by saying I know very little about the famine, so if I'm wrong in what I'm saying, then I apologise, but... was the famine actually a result of the Irish being persecuted in any way? Or was it a "natural" (for want of a better word) phenomenon? The slave trade was wrong. Apartheid was wrong. Was there someone in the wrong in the famine? Was one group of people deliberately persecuting another?

If there was some aspect of persecution to the famine, then ignore all the above, feel free to educate me, and I'll keep my nose out of this thread in future

Wiki gives some comprehensive answers with plenty of links

As usual with Wiki, because its one persons/some peoples opinions then you have to take some of it with a pinch of salt but I am sure if you read this you will answer your own questions.

The Great Hunger - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


IMO, and this is just my opinion, making light of the Famine and singing derogotary songs about it, and possible decendents of it, is as much of a wrong as it is singing about someones skin colour or the historic persection black people faced in history.

[rcgills]

Thanks for the history lesson, although to be honest I've not got time to read up on the links that have been posted. But going purely by what people have put in their posts, I still can't see the comparison between that and apartheid/slave trade/holocaust.

I'd be more inclined to compare people singing about the famine to certain people in England singing songs about Munich to Manchester United, and I don't agree with that either.

Basically this comes down to the age-old argument of where the line is drawn between what is banter and what goes beyond that and becomes offensive.

[Betfly]

.

[Snodser]

Originally Posted by rcgills

I still can't see the comparison between that and apartheid/slave trade/holocaust.

When that amount of a population is wiped out its generally referred to as genocide. The no. of people who lost there lives, in percentage terms, is more than were cleansed in the holocaust, more than were killed in communist purges under Stalin, more than were killed by the Turks in Armenia, more than were murdered in Rwanda, more then were ethnically cleansed in the Balkan wars & more than Saddams gassing of the Kurds.

I appreciate you may not have the time but I hope these few lines put it in perspective for you.



PS: Apart from the 1.5 million dead there were many immigrants, at least half of those were not voluntary, they were deported as had many before under Cromwell. Basically slave trading to Australia & Van Diemans land.


PS2: The people "governing" the Ireland of the time had put in place an apartheid system long before the Afrikaners ever had.

PS3: That same establishment invented concentration camps in South Africa during the Boer war long before Adolf ever thought of it.



Lastly, although there is much left unsaid may I add that all the above is historical fact, not some figment of mine or anyone else's imagination. Take a few minutes to check it out, if you find the time.

Goodnight.

[ONEDUNME]

may I add that all the above is historical fact,

Are you sure about that?

The no. of people who lost there lives, in percentage terms, is more than were cleansed in the holocaust

1.5 million out of a population of 8 million? What's that? 18.75%

Generally accepted figure of 6 million jews killed in the holocaust? At the same % that would put the number of jews living under Nazi occupation at at least 32 million which doesn't sound very realistic to me.

[rcgills]

Originally Posted by Snodser

When that amount of a population is wiped out its generally referred to as genocide. The no. of people who lost there lives, in percentage terms, is more than were cleansed in the holocaust, more than were killed in communist purges under Stalin, more than were killed by the Turks in Armenia, more than were murdered in Rwanda, more then were ethnically cleansed in the Balkan wars & more than Saddams gassing of the Kurds.

I appreciate you may not have the time but I hope these few lines put it in perspective for you.

I'm not disputing the numbers, Snodser. But all those other events you mention involved people/groups going out to intentionally kill others. Did the British government set out to deliberately kill the Irish? That's a genuine question, by the way, playing Devil's advocate, it's not a loaded question implying I think the answer is really no. Did they actually take the actions they took with the intention of killing Irish people? Or did they make some bad decisions, whether through incompetence or through protecting their own interests, which ended up worsening the situation? Unless they did (Edit - deliberately set out to starve them, I mean), then I still can't see the comparison other than the fact that a lot of people died.

Anyway, we both agree to a large extent. We both think the song is wrong, we just disagree on how offensive it is. You clearly know the history a lot better than I do, and I think that influences how offensive each of us finds the chant in question. You seem to have a close interest in it and as such find it offensive. Myself, with no Irish connections that I know of and as such no personal interest (no interest in the sense of no involvement, I mean, not no interest in the sense of finding it boring), I'd say that yes, it was very sad that so many people died, and I don't think it's a suitable subject to be used for "banter" to try to rile opposition fans, but I personally wouldn't be offended by it. I'd find it distasteful, yes, and I could fully understand why some people would find it offensive, but I personally wouldn't.

Anyway, I've got to be up early tomorrow, so I'll leave it there.

[Snodser]

Originally Posted by ONEDUNME

Generally accepted figure of 6 million jews killed in the holocaust? At the same % that would put the number of jews living under Nazi occupation at at least 32 million which doesn't sound very realistic to me.

When you put it like that it does not sound very realistic. But do you find it hard to believe there were "only" 32 million jews in continental Europe at the time?

I don't, they may be less prominent in the UK & Ireland but the jewish communities are still alive, populous & well implanted in continental europe.

Anyway we could argue the toss all night, but I prefer doing that around a pint!

Good luck

[Snodser]

Originally Posted by rcgills

Anyway, I've got to be up early tomorrow, so I'll leave it there.

lol, fair play rc, I suppose I better hit the scratcher myself.
There are many points I could bring up with you, but it was a different time, different values etc. most were fuelled by self interest and a belief that the Irish/scottish/welsh "races" were actually "inferior" to the anglo saxon supremacy & therefore disposable. Its not innocent if the german & english mentalities are so similar .

Anyway, this is a betting thread, not political sciences so I think I'll clear off before we scare away all the rangers fans.

Good night to one & all.

[AnothrSpacecat]

the arguments against these songs has never been the literal words used or even them being played out at footy games, as with many aspects of past life in northern ireland, its the symbolism thats intended to offend. within that context, its clear the rangers fans especially have been out of order for years, singing the slave trade is over may not offend a player who has never experienced slavery and is earning 50k+ a week but singing about the slaughter of irish catholics in the past will have far more impact on the average working man from the north, who has had to live their life through segregation and hate from primary school upto the church their funeral service is held in.

its the fact many scottish fans who have never lived in that environment do use the material for 'banter' thats caused uefa to get involved.

if there was a massive flood in bangladesh that caused thousands of people to flee into india, then the local IPL teams fans started chanting about rain it wouldnt be seen as a simple wind up

[rcgills]

Originally Posted by Snodser

Anyway, this is a betting thread, not political sciences so I think I'll clear off before we scare away all the rangers fans.

Never mind scaring them away, surely it'd be more of a worry if we attracted them all in here

[Wittmann 44]

The Famine in Ireland was a natural phenomenon to the extent that the failure of the potato crop was natural but the massive dependence on the potato was grievously aggravated and exacerbated by British economic policies of laissez faire which basically meant everyone fended for themselves and the government did nothing to intervene. It was exactly what is happening in Burma today and huge sections of British opinion and continental opinion advocated wholesale government relief but none was forthcoming from the government. The newsworthiness of the event meant that the US Indian tribes collected $1,000 to send to for famine relief.

The famine had a massive effect in stunting Ireland’s growth for decades. A recent study has found that by 2025 we should have reached the population (in the Republic) that existed pre famine which shows how much the population was decimated. Down the road from my family home a paupers grave was deconsecrated about a decade ago having been dug up during drain laying. 3,000 bodies from the famine were inside and this was fairly typical of graves up and down the country. The folk memory of the famine is still very strong in Ireland and is probably one of the main reasons why Ireland lies only behind Sweden and Holland in terms of per capita public donations to overseas relief. I had relatives that died and others that emigrated to Scotland and to Canada during and after the famine.

It wasn’t a genocide in my opinion as this implies a proactive element on behalf of the British government which simply did not exist. It was however definitely a holocaust for the Irish. In 10 years from 1845 to 1855 ½ the population had died or emigrated. There is no comparable event in world history with such a % population displacement from a country (as opposed to a race). The only one that comes close is the expulsion and murder of ethnic Germans in the season of “blood and ice” in East Prussia in 1945 which is barely recognised outside Germany. If Liverpool had suffered such a trauma even 150 years ago would the Kop think kindly about rival fans singing it at them? Every second person on Merseyside vanished? The argument Kop 66 advances about it being before our grandparent’s time isn’t relevant – this implies in a 100 years time that singing football chants about Jamie Bulger or Heysel would be alright. It isn’t now and it won’t be then.

The past matters. Ignorant bigots aside it should always matter as things are cyclical and today’s mistakes are easily avoided by looking at yesterdays mistakes. Trivialising them in football songs is stupid. But then again the people singing these songs are generally stupid so while it would be nice to think that something wittier than singing about the famine or about the IRA would emerge I’m not holding my breath.

Adolf Hitler on August 22 1939 when justifying the invasion of Poland and subsequently when discussing the elimination of Europe’s Jews pondered would anyone care - “Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians? In 100 years who will remember the Armenians”.

The Jewish population of Europe was around 10 Million in 1936 and 17 million worldwide.