Gordon Strachan

[GaNgStA kEeKs]

After having a shower and having some reflection on the Celtic game tonight here is my opinion on how things have happened etc.

Firstly - i reckon this could turn out to be a blessing in disguise. Ok- the money from Europe will be missing but i reckon we would've been shown up badly this season.

Strachans players showed some potential i thought and a season together and then get in some new players could be exactly what Celtic need and they will come back stronger next season.

Boruc is going to be a big plus for us. He is a born leader, captain of his old side and he has a lot mroe presence than Marshall will and should be able to control his defence a lot better. I am not doubting Marshall's talent, he is a good keeper but lacks presence.

Zurawski looked sharp and showed potential and i thought the Balde/McManus partnership looked good.

Again Camara looks great going forward with great delivery but lacks the defensive part of it. But he has a season to work on that and im sure he will improve.

Feeling really gutted at the minute but now is the time for all Hoops fans to rally round and get ride behind Strachan and co and guide them to the league title.

Got some more to say but i gotta go. C'mon the bhoys!!

[all_funkt_up]

I hate to spoil a party but "out by Christmas" comes to mind...

Like Newcastle fans that delude themselves into thinking they can qualify for Europe this year or sign Owen, Celtic fans are looking for a positive when there are none.

[zonker84]

Originally Posted by Kiko

Firstly - i reckon this could turn out to be a blessing in disguise. Ok- the money from Europe will be missing but i reckon we would've been shown up badly this season.

Come off it, how is it a blessing in disguise? When have Celtic ever made it past the group stages of the Champions League, even when they've had a better team? Never. The money for being there is what is much needed, even if they were to lose all 6 games.

Originally Posted by Kiko

Strachans players showed some potential i thought and a season together and then get in some new players could be exactly what Celtic need and they will come back stronger next season.

You're having a laugh aren't you? A 4-0 win against that team tonight is nothing to write home about. Equally though, 3 games into the season and you can't write anyone off.

Originally Posted by Kiko

Boruc is going to be a big plus for us. He is a born leader, captain of his old side and he has a lot mroe presence than Marshall will and should be able to control his defence a lot better. I am not doubting Marshall's talent, he is a good keeper but lacks presence.

Isn't he only on loan though? If he does well, a bigger club will come in and buy him at the end of the season.


I can't see too many positives really. Celtic will not be able to afford any decent players for next season, because they'll lose money this season. All of the players who everyone said were past it, will be a year older at the end of the season, and Celtic will have even less money to replace them with.

Whichever way you look at it, Celtic couldn't afford to go out of the Champions League in the qualifying rounds. Against decent opposition, the likes of Camara, Telfer, Balde, Varga and the rest will be badly found out

[crowie]

Zonker

As far as I know Boruc is on a 1 year loan with the option to buy him at the end of that period meaning Celtic, if they want him, would have first option on him.

To be honest I couldn't tell much about him from last night as he had nothing to do. I do know he performed well in the friendlies he played and looked like he could come and take a cross ball well. Not a special skill you may think but when you have had a series of keepers who didn't have this abilty then you and the Celtic defence would actually appreciate it

As I said in the Euro thread, its a blow going out and we are certainly not out of the woods in any way yet. A 4-0 victory over that side is nothing special and it just emphasises again how bad the performance and first leg result actually was.

I still have massive doubts about Camara defensively. He did nothing to remove those fears last night as he was another who wasn't tested defensively.

I have also heard that there will be money made available, even with going out of the CL, for a centre half before the transfer deadline closes. Its obviously one of the weak points of the team and needs addressed pretty damn quickly. Wether it means the Chinese lad Du Wei is signed or someone else I don't know.

[GaNgStA kEeKs]

I know the money is a massive loss and is very much needed for thembut they have gone close to qualifying a couple of times. Im not sure i would like to be in the Champions League getting humped and embarrassed every game like we might of done against better equipped sides.

Yes i know this already happened but its done and dusted now so we have to look at whatever positives we can take out of it.

4-0 win is nothing to write home about. I wasn't jumping for joy etc over it myself. But the team showed a bit of belief and understanding of each other which prior to this in the 2 competitive games and friendlies i never witnessed any of this.

As for Boruc - just cause he has a great season doesn't mean a bigger club will come and get him. Its not as easy as that. He may settle in very well and feel a season or two more with Celtic could benefit him before, if he ever does, he decides to move on.

I think this time your just looking for an arguement Zonker as i feel i am totally correct this time - others i know i am not but like the arguement

Only thing i will agree with you here is that the money is a massive loss. Minimum of £10million guarenteed which would've helped a lot indeed.

I wouldn't be surprised if Rangers stay in Europe till after Xmas and Celtic to run away with the league title as they are going to be fresh every game and its all they have to play for, apart from the 2 cups of course.

[GaNgStA kEeKs]

Originally Posted by crowie

Zonker

As far as I know Boruc is on a 1 year loan with the option to buy him at the end of that period meaning Celtic, if they want him, would have first option on him.

To be honest I couldn't tell much about him from last night as he had nothing to do. I do know he performed well in the friendlies he played and looked like he could come and take a cross ball well. Not a special skill you may think but when you have had a series of keepers who didn't have this abilty then you and the Celtic defence would actually appreciate it

As I said in the Euro thread, its a blow going out and we are certainly not out of the woods in any way yet. A 4-0 victory over that side is nothing special and it just emphasises again how bad the performance and first leg result actually was.

I still have massive doubts about Camara defensively. He did nothing to remove those fears last night as he was another who wasn't tested defensively.

I have also heard that there will be money made available, even with going out of the CL, for a centre half before the transfer deadline closes. Its obviously one of the weak points of the team and needs addressed pretty damn quickly. Wether it means the Chinese lad Du Wei is signed or someone else I don't know.

Boruc is in my eyes a keeper we haven't had and have needed for a while. He makes himself known and organises his defenders which if you have seen their first 2 games this season the defence was badly lacking any sort of organisation. He is a character and looks the business so i hope he is giving a regular game now to see what he can do.

Im not convinced about Camara. Great player going forward with great delivery but he is in no way a defender. Time and time again he is caught out, out of position aswell as players easily getting past him. Maybe Strachan should employ him as cover for Thompson on the left side of midfield as he could do a job there i reckon.

Its funny though. After watching the game last night, you would never have believed these were the same two sides playing. The contrast in the two games was unbelievable with the Slovakians looking World Class in the first leg, only to look like a side who would struggle in the Scottish lower divisions.

Thats the thing that bugged me. If they had come and played aswell as they did in the 1st leg i wouldve thought to myself "fair enough, the best side won on the day" but this wasn't the case and they are a very poor side IMO. Says alot about Celtic doesn't it

I will definately opposing Artmedia in the next round against whoever their opponents are.

[zonker84]

I must admit, I could've probably not posted that, but probably wanted to argue since it was you Kiko

Thanks for setting me straight on Boruc Crowie. It was a transfer that passed me by to be honest, and I didn't know too much about it, other than it was a loan deal. The only problem with Celtic having first option, is that just for argument's sake, let's say Arsenal or Real Madrid or anyone like that see him play and decide they fancy him. All they need to do is have a word with his agent, and then is he going to sign for Celtic even if they have first option? I don't think so. That's the problem with first option agreements, you can't force the player to do something he doesn't want to do. Having said that, I haven't seen Boruc play a game before last night, so I know little about how good he is, so we shall see.

One thing I really must argue with is Artmedia's performance in the first leg. It was nothing special at all from what I saw (the last 35 minutes or so). The third goal from a corner was a good hit, but no Celtic player was covering the edge of the box. The 4th and 5th, Celtic pretty much let them score. I thought Marshall dived out of the way of both, and the defending was static. In the last few minutes Celtic were basically just standing there and letting them score. It certainly was not a world class performance, any decent team would've battered Celtic in that situation.

Celtic qualifying for the Champions League was crucial. Even if they had lost all 6 group games heavily, the money gained would've been crucial. If you ask anyone at Celtic, I'm sure they'd rather have been in the group stages and did badly, than not been there at all

[GaNgStA kEeKs]

Obviously i wouldve liked them to be there for the money side of things. Im with you on that.

My original point wasn't about what i wanted, it was what i think was best for the players as they would've got some right going over's i reckon and this would not have been good for their confidence etc.

Sorry for the short reply. Some fat cnut stood on my finger last night in a football match. Unbelievable badly bruised with it feeling like its away to explode and it had to be my typing finger aswell!!. Its a right cnut trying to substitute by using another one instead.

[zonker84]

Celtic have been eliminated from the Champions League in the first group stage every time they have played in it, so this year would've been no different from the rest. As far as I remember, in away games, the draw they got in Barcelona, was the first time they'd ever even managed to avoid defeat in an away group game.

Celtic are used to losing in the group stages, so if it happened again, it would be no different. Players aren't stupid. If they're losing to the top teams in Europe, they won't be too surprised and it wouldn't affect their confidence in any great way. They're still going to be able to beat most of the poor teams in the SPL.

I do agree that being out of Europe will make Celtic more fresh for the domestic games, which will give them something extra certainly. As for Celtic running away with the league because Rangers stay in Europe, wishful thinking I think Although if you really expect this to happen, you'll get decent odds on Celtic winning the league, or you could even find some spread betting market where you can buy Celtic's points supremacy over Rangers

[ONEDUNME]

That's not a bad idea actually. There's never going to be a better time than NOW.

[GaNgStA kEeKs]

Not getting involved in the spread betting market as i don't know enough about it.

But just checking now and Celtic is available on betfair at 2.9. I'd recommend getting on it. I would but really can't stand placing bets and having to wait around 6 months for your return.

[crowie]

Zonker,

Its only as far as I am aware regarding the Boruc transfer, I am positive thats what I read (more and more of these loan transfers have this add on clause). I do take your point about if a bigger club came in for him but being realistic an Arsenal or a Real Madrid are unlikely to come calling no matter how he performs this season

Re the CL and further progress. I have two differing view points on this. One is whats been said before in that the Celtic side has went past its best and the players brought in to freshen the side up weren't the required standard to take them to the next stages.

However if you take the view that the current side may have been able to produce near the levels of performances that had been produced in the last couple of seasons then this would have been their best chance ever at the group stages. Celtic would have actually being going into the group stages in the second pot of seeds due to previous years European performance!

They have been unfortunate in the draw at times when seeded lower and hopefully the draw would have been kinder this time.

Barca and Milan is a group that no 3rd seeds would have wanted, Shaktar were also probably one of the stronger 4th seeds, certainly financially.

Prior to that Lyon and Bayern again didn't help seeding wise and again Anderlecht weren't too bad as a 4th seed.

Finally before that you have Juve, Porto and a still decent Rosenborg (at the time unbeaten for x amount of years at home in Europe).


Looking at those sides again and our away games

Barca - got an undeserved 1-1 draw
Milan - lost 2 goals in the final 5 mins after looking like getting a probably undeserved draw
Shakthar - a 3-0 tonking after 0-0 at HT. Team fell to bits when losing McNamara and Sutton to injury. Still Barca also lost there and Milan only beat a 10 man side in the final 5 mins

Bayern - lost 2-1, a combination of a freak Makaay goal and terrible keeping got Bayern back in the game when 1-0 down
Lyon - lost 3-2, a combination of terrible keeping and ridiculous Balde penalty in final 5 mins lost us the game
Anderlecht - a bad one, game there for the taking when they were down to 10 men in first half, flopped badly and lost 1-0


Juve - lost 3-2 to a terrible penalty decision with about 5 mins to go
Porto - a 3-0 tonking, well beaten by a much better side
Rosenborg - a 2-0 loss, looked on as a bad result by Scottsh media but against a side with a great HOME european pedigree and much more experienced than the Celtic side in this competition.

Out of the above I would say we were only really shown up by Porto and Shaktar away from home. Anderlecht was probably the worst in terms of having the best chance of taking away points. Surprisingly we probably got our only away point against the best side of the 9 away from home!!

Sure a lot of ifs, buts and maybe and the final figure is 1pt out of 27 but there were a few close calls against, IMO, a pretty difficult set of opponents. Bigger and more expectant sides than Celtic have not produced in Europe as well.

Also our record at home v those 9 was W6 D2 L1 (to a simply superb Barca side). Not too bad and one I am sure a large percentage of CL sides would take.

Anyway its no longer relevant to this season I suppose.

[zonker84]

I take your point Crowie there. The Juventus penalty was disgraceful, as was the Lyon one. If Lyon didn't win that final game, Celtic went through I believe. I remember the game well as I was on Over 2.5 goals, which won easily.

Celtic haven't been that fortunate with the draws, but then you have to overcome those sometimes. The Barcelona / Milan group was a nightmare, and not many 3rd seeds would've made it through from that.

The other groups were managable if they'd done the business, just they just fell short. As you say, they could well have had their easiest ever draw this time due to their better seeding, but we'll never know. Their co-efficient may suffer enough due to their failure this season to knock them back down the seeding ladder next time though

[GaNgStA kEeKs]

Their problem in Europe seems to be the away matches.

If they could've picked up at least 1 or 2 points it would've made the world of good for them but they could never quite pull it off.

Strange though - i know the teams are of better quality in the Champions League - but in the Uefa cup games they were fantastic away from home and got great results away to teams like Liverpool, Blackburn, Villarael.

Bar Blackburn the other two are as good as some of the teams they came up against and got beat by in the Champions League.

Anyways - enough Champions League talk from me. Seems i only have the SPL to talk about now.

[crowie]

Originally Posted by zonker84

I take your point Crowie there. The Juventus penalty was disgraceful, as was the Lyon one. If Lyon didn't win that final game, Celtic went through I believe. I remember the game well as I was on Over 2.5 goals, which won easily.

Celtic haven't been that fortunate with the draws, but then you have to overcome those sometimes. The Barcelona / Milan group was a nightmare, and not many 3rd seeds would've made it through from that.

The other groups were managable if they'd done the business, just they just fell short. As you say, they could well have had their easiest ever draw this time due to their better seeding, but we'll never know. Their co-efficient may suffer enough due to their failure this season to knock them back down the seeding ladder next time though

As you said, you have to overcome these sides sometime, very true. If you don't you struggle to progress seeding wise. Yep, this time would have been both the easiest chance to go beyond the groups (seeding wise) but also the most difficult (due to the quality of the team) - a strange conundrum!

Not only will this exit cost us a lot money wise this year but the knock on longer term is huge.

This excellent site Berts UEFA co-efficients shows the figures that UEFA use to determine rankings and 5 year rolling co-efficients.

Bert is already updating the figures for the 2005/6 European season. Teams get points just for going straight into the group stages. The co-efficient is mainly based on the teams performance (although there are other points awarded possibly for how the teams from the country as a whole perform - I think!).

As you can see from the page posted above, Celtic's points earned this season are 0.083, terrible when you consider 23.433 for getting to UEFA Cup final. That low score of 0.083 will stick with us for the next 5 years now. It will also affect the overall Scottish leagues co-efficient meaning we may lose
our 2nd CL spot if we slip below 15th in the country rankings HERE

Again our poor performance this season will affect the Scottish clubs overall record for the next 5 years going forward.

Just as we looked like we are achieving a decent seeding for both club and a decent ranking for country then we could be losing it over the next season or two. As I said, the implications are not purely this seasons financial loss but also future seasons potential financial loss.