Newly Promoted Sides Transfer Activity

[GaNgStA kEeKs]

Now my question is this. Why do Newly promoted sides to the Premiership continue to sign Championship standard players where maybe only 10-15% of these players actually make any impact here.

Some Sunderland signings right now spring to mind as Tommy Miller, Kelvin Davies and Martin Woods all from Championship sides.

Wigan Signings Taylor and Pollit both from Championship and League 1.

Season after season these clubs buy players from the lower divisions when they would be better scouring Europe for players with quality and experience who would cope better in this division or taking players from EPL clubs who won't be playing regularly.

West Ham have done alright i reckon. Bennayoun from Santander will be a great signing. He has consistently scored goals in Spain and has been a regular and one of their best players down the years.

Roy Carrol is another who is of good standard. Just a couple of errors here and there for Man Utd and lack of opportunities hindered his progression.

Other signings in Henchoz and Konchesky both have the experience to cope in this division aswell.

Many will argue its because its the best their budget can afford but this is utter bullshit when Sunderland can spend close to a million on Miller and then i see Wigan offering 4million for Jagielka. Don't get me wrong, he is an alright player but whether he can hack it in the EPL is a different matter.

Another arguement is the standard of the team that will affect players wanting to go to them. Again this is balls as if a player see's a side with some sort of ambition and can offer the wages etc then they will easily join the side.

Anyways - rant over, just thought i would let out my anger at the way promoted sides go about their business.

[all_funkt_up]

I would say that money is the deciding factor. Most newly promoted clubs simply cant afford to commit to a high transfer fee and a long term contract on big wages. Seems to me that there are less newly promoted clubs that are willing to gamble on their clubs success. They would rather keep their money in their pocket and if they get relegated - they have still had the increased revenues from the Premiership and will still get a parachute payment from the EPL. I think a lot of clubs see the longer term rather than in the past when the tendancy was to spend money on a few 'stars' who had the potential to bankrupt the club.

It doesnt make for football that is pleasing on the eye, a load of re hashed journeymen playing in the EPL - but I think it sensible for them and the only real option. Interesting that Wigan, who were supposed to be this year's big spenders, havent managed to find anyone to splash their cash on. Maybe there is just a dirth of talent out there and managers are unwilling to pay over the odds for players. O'Leary was promised a few quid at Villa too wasnt he - he hasnt found anyone that matches the bill for the cash he has...

[GaNgStA kEeKs]

I can see what you mean AFU but take Sunderland for example. Paying near £1 million for Miller when they could say get 2 players from an emerging country such as Lithuania for a fraction of that.

Facts are - Miller has just done it in the Championship and no where else. The Lithuanian's represent their domestic side in Europe year in year out and the national side which is starting to cause impact at the International stage.

Burley is a great manager for unearthing cheap players with bags of talent. Idiakez, Raziak spring to mind - then you have the one's he has brought in at Hearts.

Easily done - all it takes is that extra bit of homework.

[ONEDUNME]

Originally Posted by Kiko

Idiakez, Raziak spring to mind -
Easily done - all it takes is that extra bit of homework.

True but have they been unearthed by him or by the spying network he's had in place at his previous club?

I dunno. We'll find out.

[zonker84]

Originally Posted by Kiko

Now my question is this. Why do Newly promoted sides to the Premiership continue to sign Championship standard players where maybe only 10-15% of these players actually make any impact here.

Some Sunderland signings right now spring to mind as Tommy Miller, Kelvin Davies and Martin Woods all from Championship sides.

Wigan Signings Taylor and Pollit both from Championship and League 1.

Season after season these clubs buy players from the lower divisions when they would be better scouring Europe for players with quality and experience who would cope better in this division or taking players from EPL clubs who won't be playing regularly.

West Ham have done alright i reckon. Bennayoun from Santander will be a great signing. He has consistently scored goals in Spain and has been a regular and one of their best players down the years.

Roy Carrol is another who is of good standard. Just a couple of errors here and there for Man Utd and lack of opportunities hindered his progression.

Other signings in Henchoz and Konchesky both have the experience to cope in this division aswell.

Many will argue its because its the best their budget can afford but this is utter bullshit when Sunderland can spend close to a million on Miller and then i see Wigan offering 4million for Jagielka. Don't get me wrong, he is an alright player but whether he can hack it in the EPL is a different matter.

Another arguement is the standard of the team that will affect players wanting to go to them. Again this is balls as if a player see's a side with some sort of ambition and can offer the wages etc then they will easily join the side.

Anyways - rant over, just thought i would let out my anger at the way promoted sides go about their business.

Once again, I have to completely disagree.

Last time Sunderland were in the Premier League, in the August before the season started, they signed Matt Piper (£3.5m), Tore-Andre Flo (£6.75m), Marcus Stewart (£3.25m) and Mart Poom (£2.5m), all on pretty decent wages I assume. These were panic buys from Peter Reid because the fans had been on his back to make big signings. The board allowed them because they were worried about getting relegated. A couple of months later, Reid was sacked, and at the end of the season the club was relegated with the lowest points total in Premier League history I think. Sunderland then had to sack around 50 staff who worked at the club, offload a lot of players, and very nearly went into administration. Their share price crashed, and as far as I know, they still have approximately £16m of debt.

What do you want them to do? If they bring in foreign signings, you have no idea if they'll be any good. So many times clubs have signed players who looked good in other countries, but just couldn't hack it here at all. Sunderland can't pay massive fees and wages, and are not willing to put the future of their club at risk. They are signing promising, younger British players who they know will have no problems settling in. Tommy Miller did not cost £1m by the way, he was out of contract at Ipswich. His wages will be a lot lower than a proven foreign player you can pick up, who may be no good anyway. At least with Miller, you know what you're going to get. Woods is a 19 year old with no real experience, signed on a free I believe (or appearance based fee), so it's not a big signing. Sunderland also just signed Alan Stubbs yesterday to give their defence more experience.

Sunderland have clearly taken the attitude of improving their team a bit and thinking long-term. If they get relegated, they'll use the extra income from their season in the Premier League to come back stronger.

And who says the players Sunderland have signed are bad players? Remember Tim Cahill? Everton signed him from Millwall remember.

As for Wigan, well according to reports, they have attempted to sign Scott Parker and others, but players are reluctant to sign for them. They signed Mike Pollitt because they only wanted a back-up goalkeeper, after Paul Jewell said that Filan would be first-choice. Ryan Taylor is a very promising players, who won't be on big wages. Wigan have sold the likes of Eaden and Breckin to make way for him. You've also got it totally wrong about Henchoz. He has signed for Wigan and not West Ham. They've also signed Pascal Chimbonda, who was a regular for Bastia for the past 2 seasons.

Top players are not going to join Wigan, which is a fact. It is just not true that players will sign for any club as you claim. Yes, Scott Parker would probably have chosen Wigan if they'd offered him £90,000 a week wages, but are suggesting that clubs should mortgage their future by handing out massive contracts when they may get relegated anyway? If you offer enough money, most players would join you, that's true. The only problem with that is, if you get relegated, you go into administration, and all of your players get sold for peanuts to pay off the debts, and probably your stadium and training ground too. What happened to Leeds should act as a warning that it can happen to anyone.

Sorry Kiko, but the Peter Ridsdale attitude to football finances just doesn't work any more. If you were chairman of a club, I'd put money on them going bankrupt rather quickly. Clubs have to be run more carefully these days, and rightly so. West Ham and Sunderland have had major money problems, and they can't afford to be reckless. Wigan do have a bit to spend, as they have a wealthy benefactor, but you can't just go and spend massive money on a load of foreign players. Chances are it would go wrong, you'd get relegated and be well on the road to ruin.

[GaNgStA kEeKs]

Zonker - them players you mentioned bar Flo and Poom is exactly what i am saying. They have paid over the price money for 2 average players in Piper and Stewart. Stewart i think had one freak season - bit like Stead for Blackburn and then look at what happened to them. Both them players are nowhere near worth £7million combined value.

You mention Cahill - If you read my post properly you will see i did mention 10-15% of players actually make an impact.

And in reply to your "any player would join any club". Not what i wrote again. I said that any player would be willing to join a club which will show them some ambition and make them think going there would be a good move.

No "big name" player is going to join a club that are looking for them to solely be their big signing for the summer. They want a club that are going to back up the signing of themselves with the signing of more quality players.

And what i am saying has nothing to do with the Peter Risdale attitude to football. I mentioned Burley who goes about his signings in a way more managers should adopt where he enters markets that are of sorts "unknown" to many and gets some real quality.

[GaNgStA kEeKs]

Come on Zonks - i'm eagerly awaiting your reply

[zonker84]

Hearts can sign relatively unknown Lithuanians who can make some sort of impact (do bear in mind that Hearts have played 1 game this season). Burley also signed a couple of players who have done a very good job with Derby.

If you sign these players in the Premier League, they would be rubbish. Believe me, these players wouldn't be at Hearts or Derby if they were capable of making an impact in the Premier League. You could take Tommy Miller or John Stead and put them in Hearts' team, and they would look outstanding because the standard of the Scottish Premier League is woeful.

As for Matt Piper and Marcus Stewart, well Piper when Sunderland signed him had several clubs chasing him as he was regarded as one of the most promising players around at the time. He has been hugely unfortunate with injuries since then, so I don't think you can write him off just like that, as I'm guessing you've not seen him play that many times? Stewart in the end did a decent job for Sunderland. They've just released him, but Mick McCarthy described him as their best player last season, and a major reason for them getting promoted. Not a world-beater, and they did pay too much for him, but he isn't a bad player.

You're missing my point. If you want players from abroad who are going to make a serious impact, you have to pay big wages, and possibly a large transfer fee as well. Occasionally, you'll get Arsene Wenger unearthing a Kolo Toure or Nicolas Anelka. In the main, you cannot sign unknown players who are going to be good players in the Premier League. You have to pay for what you get. Promoted clubs are not going to mortgage the future of their clubs by spending money they don't have chasing success. If they do, look what happened to Leeds and Bradford to name two. Bradford signed Dan Petrescu, Benito Carbone, Stan Collymore, Ashley Ward and David Hopkin for their second season in the Premier League, after just avoiding relegation their first season after promotion. The transfer fees added up to less than £5m, but the wages for these players crippled them and they are still paying the price now, having been into administration twice.

You're totally missing my point really. So OK, you say a very good player won't join a promoted club if they think no other good players are going to be signed. How does a promoted club sign lots of good players? By spending loads of money is the only way. Then if they get relegated, financial meltdown occurs. Believe me, if Wigan or Sunderland signed a couple of Lithuanian internationals, this is not going to help persuade other players to join them.

I think pretty much everything you have said is completely wrong, but I don't think you're in a hurry to agree with me, so we'll have to agree to disagree (again)

[GaNgStA kEeKs]

Don't have much time as i will be away to play in a footie match shortly but Lithuania was used as an example as they are a decent international side now that consist of technically gifted players.

They are more than holding their own Qualifying campaign with a game in hand and 4 points off Spain at the top of division. The group consists of Spain, Belgium, Serbia and Montenegro and Bosnia so you can see its a very tough group so they must have some decent players there.

English clubs are scared to give them a chance probably because of the unknown quality of the team but down the years you will see more and more in the top leagues. Anyways this is getting off the point.

Maybe we should get our own forum Zonk? And people fire off questions and we go at it in it. I think it could be popular

[zonker84]

One more point I have to make. It's all very well saying, go and sign a lot of "unknown" players from Eastern Europe, put them in your team and take the Premier League by storm.

Quite frankly, it's ludicrous. Sunderland and Wigan earned promotion by having a great team spirit, working hard for each other, and have 11 players all giving their all. If you're suggesting each club should sign several unknown foreign players, a lot of whom probably don't speak English and just putting them in your team, it's a recipe for disaster. Players from foreign countries traditionally take time to settle in and get used to the style of football here. It's ok if you're signing top internationals from North-Western European countries (such as France or Holland - Henry, Vieira, Desailly, Pires, Petit, Overmars, van Nistelrooy, Stam and so on), but if you're signing Eastern European players, it is a whole different lifestyle for them in England compared to their home countries. A large percentage of these players would have trouble settling in any case. When the inevitable relegation happened, they'd all be wanting to leave, and you'd have to sell them for a massive loss probably, just to get them off the wage bill. Then the club is in a worse position than when it started.

The way Sunderland and Wigan are doing it makes sense. The club progresses gradually, doesn't get into financial trouble, and if relegation does happen, they're in a position to come back stronger. A few years ago, Sunderland got promoted, didn't spend much money and got relegated, but then the next year won the First Division by a mile, then established themselves in the Premier League for a few seasons. Charlton followed a similar pattern as well, which allowed them to get promoted a second time, then establish themselves in the Premier League.

What you're suggesting just would not work, unless you get very lucky (or your judgement is very good) and you happen to stumble across some very, very good players who go on to be the next Nedveds of the world. Signing a load of unknown foreign players who guarentee relegation 9 times out of 10.

I'm happy to have as many of these discussions as you like Kiko. I've no idea if anyone is paying any attention to what we say, but I do enjoy a good discussion I think it helps how we almost always disagree completely You probably should just admit I'm right all the time, but I admire your fighting spirit to these arguments

[GaNgStA kEeKs]

Originally Posted by zonker84

Quite frankly, it's ludicrous. Sunderland and Wigan earned promotion by having a great team spirit, working hard for each other, and have 11 players all giving their all.

This is good enough to get from the Championship into the EPL but its not good enough to compete and stay in the EPL. Many teams have tried and failed on the notion of a great team spirit and working hard for each other.

For the record though - a lot of Lithuanians speak English

I know this as i have a friend called Mantas from there. Been following there football for a few years now due to him and i have been very impressed by their improvement over the last couple of years.

Although i did get the piss ripped out of me when they beat Scotland 1-0

[zonker84]

Regardless of whether they speak English or not, signing a load of dodgy, unproven foreign players is the surest way the promoted teams can make sure that they get relegated and into financial problems afterwards. As I said, it's easy for these players to make an impact in the SPL, because it's English League One standard outside the Old Firm.