Ridiculous Work Permit's

[GaNgStA kEeKs]

Dundee United have questioned the Home Office's integrity after St Johnstone were granted a work permit for former United striker Jason Scotland.
Earlier this month United were angered by a Home Office decision to deny the Trinidad & Tobago international an extension to his permit.

A football review panel ruled he did not make a significant enough impact during his two seasons at Tannadice.

United say the latest decision makes a "laughing stock" of the system.

"The action taken today to reverse all of this and grant a permit for him to play for a club, which, up until now, has had no connection with the player, can only be described, at best, as absurd and well-nigh unbelievable," a club statement said.

"While we have nothing against St Johnstone, this decision today clearly questions the integrity of the UK Home Office system.

"Today's decision confirms, as we have said all along, that the original decision was categorically wrong.

"The case put forward by St Johnstone was the same as we gave to the Home Office minister in our dossier of 15 July. The player's position has not altered since then as he hasn't kicked a ball in earnest since the Home Office minister turned us down.

"This wholly sorry absurd situation makes a laughing stock of the system carried out when determining whether or not to grant a player a permit to play for a club in this country."

The player's agent Mike Berry told BBC Scotland he was "elated, after six or seven weeks of having his livelihood taken away from him".

"However he would still rather be a Dundee United player," he added.

St Johnstone manager Owen Coyle told the club's official website: "I am delighted our application has been approved.

"Our presentation was done on the basis that Jason can make a significant contribution to St Johnstone Football Club and the Scottish Football League and I'm pleased our presentation was well received.

"We don't physically have the permit as yet, but that will follow and we will be speaking to Jason and his agent tomorrow (Wednesday) with a view to getting things concluded as quickly as possible."

The guy is right. It makes a right laughing stock of the system. We see similar things happening time and time again.

Why when clubs try for a work permit and its rejected they try a week later on appeal, nothing has changed from before and its accepted. Makes no sense.

The work permit system has to be reviewed immediately.

[crowie]

Originally Posted by Kiko

The guy is right. It makes a right laughing stock of the system. We see similar things happening time and time again.

C'mon then Kiko, examples please

I can see the reasons behind this. The Home Office feel that Scotland isn't a good enough quality player to make a significant impact in the SPL.

21 league starts and 29 subs appearances in the last 2 seasons sort of suggest Utd also don't think that he is good enough for a regular first team place. If he was then why is he on the bench so often? He scored 8 goals in those 50 appearances, not exactly groundbreaking.

However now that he has applied for a permit to play at a lower level then they do feel its warranted as they feel he is good enought to make a "significant contribution" in the Scottish Football League, which he probably is. The bare facts are that he is now going to be playing at a level which will suit him.

And a question - would Scotland have been picked in front of Lee Miller (who wasn't there last season), Stevie Crawford or Fernandez (who wasn't there last season? Or even Jim McIntyre for that matter. Personally I would put him 5th in that line up which again backs up the original point that he is not good enough to command a regular first team place.

[GaNgStA kEeKs]

Thanks for explaining that Crowie. Makes a lot more sense to me now and isn't so ridiculous now after you put that to me.

But how do you explain the clubs who appeal a week later and it is then accepted?

[Hippy Dave]

Originally Posted by Kiko

But how do you explain the clubs who appeal a week later and it is then accepted?

Not sure about Scotland, but based on CM I think it works like this in England.

To get a work permit, you have to have played 75% of your country's internationals over the last 2 years.

A work permit is given or not given on the basis of this. If it is not given then the club can appeal, and if there are special circumstances then the player will get the work permit on appeal.

If a player has been at a club and the work permit is up for renewal he has to have played in 75% of that clubs game that he was available for (eg injuries). Again, that is the determinant of whether a work permit is given or not, but an appeal process is allowed if the club feels there are special circumstances involved.

That' smy understanding of how it works anyway.

[GaNgStA kEeKs]

Fuck - i never thought of going by Champ Man. Cheers Dave - all makes perfect sense now.

They should use Champ Man for education purposes and add little lessons on Maths etc through it. All male grades would be rocketing through the roof!

[Hippy Dave]

The problem with CM (at least in the old version I have) is that there's no appeal option - they might have put that into newer versions though.

[crowie]

. Aye there is appeals processes in the new one Dave.

I don't think its just as simple as playing 75% of your countries international now as there are players who come in with little or no international experience. A lot depends on which country your coming from. The higher ranking the country, the easier it is to get a permit as you are regarded as a better standard of player. Think of Forlan getting straight in at Man Utd, as he was coming from a country with a decently ranked national side - and he had never played for Uruguay as far as I am aware. Players like Edu also got into Arsenal with no real permit problems.

One of the reasons Jason Scotland was knocked back was Trinidad & Tobago are pretty lowly ranked in the FIFA rankings so the view is "Is a player from this sort of country likely to be better than what we currently have". I know Celtic wouldn't face as much of a problem with Du Wei, the Chinese lad, as he is perceived as being from a better quality national side.

There are other appeals processes, things like the national manager giving a reference for the player and so on. I remember that Petrov was, I am pretty sure, knocked back for a permit with Celtic when he first joined but you had players like Stoichkov standing as reference saying he was going to be a top class player.

[zonker84]

Originally Posted by crowie

Players like Edu also got into Arsenal with no real permit problems.

Totally wrong Crowie.

Edu originally was meant to sign for Arsenal in the summer of 2000. He turned up at the airport in London with an Italian passport, supplied by his agent I think. This passport turned out to be false, so he was deported.

He had to then apply for a genuine one, which was issued at some point in the following few months, and he eventually signed for Arsenal in January 2001, as an EU-player, courtesy of his Italian passport. At that time he had zero international caps, so I think Arsenal knew they would not be able to get a work permit for him.

[zonker84]

Originally Posted by crowie

better standard of player. Think of Forlan getting straight in at Man Utd, as he was coming from a country with a decently ranked national side - and he had never played for Uruguay as far as I am aware.

I'm also not 100% sure on this one, but I think Forlan had dual nationality as well (ie a Spanish passport) before he signed for Manchester United. If you remember, Middlesbrough were about to sign him before they nipped in. The transfer was completed very quickly, which indicates a work permit was not required. If you hold an EU-passport, a work permit is not required.

I think the current criteria is that you're played 75% of a country's competitive games in the past two years, for a country in the top 75 of FIFA's rankings. There are exceptions to this rule, which may have helped St Johnstone. If you're going to sign a player and he doesn't meet all the requirement for a work permit, if he is going to be among your top 5 or 6 wage earners, they will make it much more likely that a work permit will be granted, as the Home Office will see that you're not going to pay someone more than most of your other players then not use them.

There are other things, such as references from national coachs and football associations and also stuff like missing international games due to injury can be used to excuse falling below the 75% level.

It can't be set in stone, because what happens if the next George Best comes along, and he happens to be Sri Lankan? I think the Home Office should review the current system a little, but they do have to have guidelines I suppose. If the Sri Lankan George Best comes along, UK clubs would probably struggle to sign him at the moment. The Home Office should use a little more common sense at times when deciding on work permits, although on the most part they probably get it right

[crowie]

I will bow to your greater knowledge on these matters Zonker. Didn't think Edu was so "dodgy" and now you come to mention it, the Forlan transfer did fire through quickly.

Would be interesting to see what the actual criteria was that a players application for a work permit is actually judged on. A few thoughts on what it is in these posts but it seems no one knows exactly for certain. Zonker, that bit about being in the top wage earners at the club rings a bell as well.

[zonker84]

I think the top 5 wage earner thing would've been crucial for Jason Scotland. Not likely to be a top earner at Dundee United for the reasons stated above, but probably one of St Johnstone's top earners now. I don't see too many other factors that would've made him get the permit this time but not last time, apart from the fact that as you say he wasn't a regular at Dundee United.

When Middlesbrough re-signed Juninho, I think there were work permit problems (could be wrong, just going off a vague memory here), but the fact he was on a big £40,000 per week contract or whatever, swung it their way.

I think common sense has to be applied, and often is. This Jason Scotland case is probably a bit silly, as if a player gets a permit at one club, he should also get one at another club in the same country.

[crowie]

Zonker,

The Scotland case was definately decided on where he was going to play his football ie SPL v SFL. The view that he was playing in a lower standard (Div 1) was basically why he got his permit this time. Quite what happens if St Johnstone get promoted this season I don't know

[zonker84]

Well the wording of the so-called rules is open to debate.

Basically, for any non-EU national to obtain a UK work permit, they have to demonstrate that they possess skills not already available here. Football is a special case, but using your argument here Crowie, East Stirling could go and sign 15 members of the Cook Islands national team and say they'll have a big impact on their team. Looking at the bigger picture, they won't be any better than players available elsewhere in Scotland. If this extreme example were to become reality and a Third Division Club was trying to sign players from some obscure country, I'd expect their work permit applications to be turned down, and rightly so.

Jason Scotland plays for a country ranked outside FIFA's top 75, and he is not so good that players of his ability aren't available in Scotland. That's the way I look at it. If he was turned down for a permit at Dundee United, he should've been turned down at St Johnstone. Which division they are in doesn't matter.

The only difference I see is that he'll be playing a more prominent role at St Johnstone (and thus will be higher up their pay structure), which is why he was given a permit. The wage element is crucial as far as the Home Office is concerned in cases like this. If you run a big company and want to appoint a non-EU national, and you're making him a senior manager, you're likely to get a work permit for him as he'll be important to you. If you are trying to appoint someone as a junior employee, you're likely to be declined. This same theory applies to football and is the only reason St Johnstone got the work permit I believe.