How to lose in a live tournement

[GETT1NLOTS]

I played in a live tournement last night and I am still kicking myself this morning for playing like a right dope. I'm not sure why I'm posting this up other than

a) I'm hoping it's theraputic for me in some way as it was the first thing I thought about when I woke up.

b) As a lesson how not to win a live MTT for anyone who is interested.

It's a £30 (rebuy for first 90 mins) pot limit holdem tournement with 76 players.

I spend the first 90 minutes playing super tight and very aggressive. I'm building a really good table image and have only played 5 hands (other than when I'm obliged by being on the BB) and won the two showdowns I have been involved in.

One was when my JJ held up against 10 10.

Then I made a pot sized raise with AKs which was folded by the whole table (I then flipped over my cards to add to this tight image I'm building).

The last showdown before rebuys finish I am on the button and the table has one caller in early and I flat call 87s. The BB checks. The flop comes 9d 6d 5h so I flop the straight but naturally I'm concerned about the flush. It checks round to me and I bet the pot. Early caller calls and BB folds. The turn comes 4s. I go all in (which is just shy of the pot total) and I'm called. Now I know the caller from a few years back when I started playing poker and he's a very strong player who enters the British £1,500 freezout champs every year. He won it on a deal a few years back (so he tells anyone who'll listen and I guess he must be telling the truth or someone would have called him a lying tosser by now.) Anyhow. I know he puts me on AKs or drawing to a high flush because of my super tight play. I have obviously been folding suited low connectors up to now otherwise I would have been playing more pots - so I know he doesn't put me on the flopped straight. He calls and we turn them over to see he is nut flushing - the river comes rags and I double up.

I can see he is confused as are some other players as I've been too tight to be playing suited low connectors until now but the truth is I just got lucky the one time I decided to donate a flat call pre flop as I was on the button and just felt like seeing the flop.

Rebuys finish - I don't need to top up as I'm in good shape and I haven't rebought once. I'm feeling pretty good.

I now win an all in raise, reraise, reraise battle with KK in the hole against JJ. I'm just about chip leader.


Then I play like a prat and I suppose this is the crux of my post. This is how to undo 3 hours hard work in one stupid hand. (Comments welcomed by people who can play).

I'm in late position and hold AJs.

1 - folds
2 - 2,000 raise
3 - folds,
4 - folds,
5 - folds,
6 - folds,
Me - calls (2 doesn't worry me too much as he's medium loose / aggressive)
SB - folds
BB - reraises 6,500

2 - folds
Me - I should fold here. The BB is the British Champs player and I know after a raise and a call by super tight image man (me) he must have better than AJs. What the fuck am I thinking? I have about 13,000 in chips still in front of me He has only 400 chips on top of his 6,500 raise so it will be effectively a 6,900 call to me.

I'm in good shape overall and I shouldn't get involved here. I'm still kicking myself this morning as the call is such a donkey play here. Anyway I do call (after much pondering) and he flips over KK so as I suspected I'm behind. Ok I have a few outs here but it's still a crap play.

He makes a full house KKKJJ - I make JJJAx. (King on the flop by the way so I'm never hopeful).

Now I go back to being super tight with my remaining 6,000 chips but the BB is now at about 600 and I'm dangerously close to that 10 x BB where stuff gets a bit scarey. Eventually I have to push my JJ when blinded down to 4,000 and lose heads up to QQ.

In effect I played 4 hours of poker and bust myself out by playing one really crap hand.

Anyway - thanks for letting me get that off my chest. I must go to work.

[cains]

OUCH!!

At least you know what you did wrong.. And im sure you wont do that again...
Ive only played 1 live game, and didnt get the cards to get anywhere near what you played. But i know for sure i have done it a few times online..
Getting good stack, and then f*** it all away in a few hands..

You will do better next time that for sure..

[Doc]

it is far from the worst play I've seen

A lot depends on your reads of the players and the size of their stacks and the blinds.

The raise-call-reraise move is a nice one, as the original raiser doesn't know if you have a monster and will raise it up again (he is also out of position), so unless he has something very big he has to fold. He has also put the pressure on you.

The thing that would worry me here is the guys position - he has effectively gone all-in - that means he isn't worried about position - i.e. his hand plays itself, or at least has a lot of strength.

Having seen his cards afterwards, you have to realise that whatever you did he was going to put all his chips in the middle. So in evaluating this hand, you have to consider:
a) the call of the original raiser
b) the implied odds for your hand when the BB plays back at you.

Considering the initial call, I'm not crazy about it (I'm assuming the blinds are about 600?) To flat call I'd want to be fairly sure that both blinds were timid players who wouldn't play with anything other than a monster here (not quite the case) AND that this guy is very loose aggressive and can and will make this move with any cards (probably not the case). If I was going to play I think I'd reraise to about 5.5K or 6K to try and isolate the initial raiser and get a feel for what he has.

Now for the second call. You are being asked to call 6900 to win about 13K if I read this right? Your AJs is about a 2-1 underdog against his KK, so even if you could see his cards this would be a close call. However, it isn't quite enough. Now obviously you don't know what he actually has. I'd break it down something like this:
AA - you're knackered, 90-10 behind
KK,QQ - you're 2-1 behind
JJ - about the same as above
A-big - ditto, but a little worse (70-30)
KQs - you're a 60-40 favourite
Other pair - you're a slight underdog
A-small(er than Jack) - you're 70-30 favourite

The chances of him having A-small or KQs are very small I'd say. Similarly the chance of him making this move with less than Jacks are also fairly small, UNLESS you feel there is a strong chance he is the sort of player who will make a 'squeeze play' like this.

So on balance, my take would be:
1) Fold to the first raise
2) Re-raise the first raiser, then call (you will have overwhelming odds to call the BB)
3) Call then fold to the BB
4) Call, Call

So, wrong play, but not the worst.

[mrmuzeman]

Yeah tbh even AQ is a bit shite to call a raise with let alone a re-raise with AJ. I dont begrudge a call in the first place seeing as you had position and thought you may well be playing the best hand. But yeah as you know you have to lay down AJ after that re-raise there. Theres a slight chance he could be squeezing but because of his stack youd have to doubt that.

Id disregard pot odds here to some extent here as well cos its not a cash game where you can reload, tournament chips are far more important.

As long as you learn from it which im sure you will then it was a worthwhile tourny. Basically AJ fine to raise with but not to call a raise.

[Burt Saddo]

was it the fact that you were chip leader GETT1N and you felt invincible due to your good play up to that point? I've been there..........

[GETT1NLOTS]

It was simply a fundementally awful piece of poker play. I still have no idea why I played that hand. I was behind. I knew I was behind. And I knew he had AA, KK, QQ or AK. I have been shaking my head all day at that call.

Awful. Awful. Awful.

[Doc]

don't beat yourself up too much. The initial call was probably more of an error, especially with this good player still to act.

As regards the second, had he had 5,000 or 5,500 chips then the call would have been ok even knowing he held KK

[GETT1NLOTS]

Yeah the first call was terrible too Doc. AJ is no starting hand even in late position. I'm facing a raise from early position and he is kind of loose'ish' but all the same he will probably have a coin flip starting chance with any pair and any similar starting hand. He had 11,000 or so in chips so I shouldn't have got involved here.

Once I get reraised I just cannot believe I call. Still can't.

Doc why would you still call if the BB had 5,000 even if you knew he had KK? The way I look at it you should be shoving your money in when you're ahead. I knew I wasn't ahead at this point (well I was 99% sure which is why I'm so angry with myself) so why push chips in for a coin flip chance at best - and especially not if I KNOW I'm behind? I'm missing something still when it comes to implied odds aren't I?

One other thing. I have been brushing up on my poker reading online at a few places and in some books. One quote I like was 'don't call with a hand you wouldn't raise with' (obviously I this doesn't mean you always raise with a hand you're calling with though...) I would never have raised given all the circumstances described last night with AJ - so why did I call?

[mrmuzeman]

Nothing wrong with raising in a tourny with AJ in late position if everyones folded to you. Thats fine you may steal the blinds etc and even if you get a call you probably have position.

Docs referring to the odds your getting with whats already in the pot. Theres around 11k in the pot after the raise and youve gotta put 7kish more in to get the cards turned over. (actually not sure what the pot cotained and how much you had to call but ill say more below on this)

With AJ v KK your a 2/1ish dog, probly slightly worse. So even if you KNEW he had KK youd call if you were getting the right odds. Say there was 9k in the pot but you only had to put 3k more in to get a showdown, well then your getting 3/1 odds and youre not as big an underdog as that so you call.

In your circumstance you werent getting the odds to call, as Doc infers if it were only 5k more to call you may consider it. As it happens though I wouldnt call for 5k even cos even though the odds are about right I dont think its worth becoming short stacked for if you dont win.

[GETT1NLOTS]

Docs referring to the odds your getting with whats already in the pot. Theres around 11k in the pot after the raise and youve gotta put 7kish more in to get the cards turned over.

I understand pot odds Mr Muze - I thought Doc might have been talking about implied odds.

Anyhow the example you give above wasn't the case.

SB - 300
BB - 600
Raise - 2000
My Call - 2000

Total - 4,900 in the pot before it gets to BB

BB - Raises 6,500 (+ 2000) call

Total - 13,400

I call 6,900 for a 14,200 pay off (about a 21,100 total pot with the few extra chips he had).

So I had pot odds there or there abouts anyway it seems?

Still a shit play though. I should never have called the 2,000 raise from player 2 with BB still to come. I just didn't need to get involved with AJ when I knew I had to draw a card to win.

As you say MrMuze - It's just not worth being short stacked irrespective of pot odds in an MTT.

[Doc]

I COULD call for the 5K for the reasons Mr.M indicates.

However the odds aren't your only considerations. You want to look at the tournament structure, the average stack sizes, your table image etc.

If you want to win a tournament you'll almost certainly have to get your money in the pot at some stage when your're probably behind. When is the right time to do that is a difficult call. The real difficulty has been created by your first call, but once that is made, then you have to move on and evaluate each challenge as it comes.

The upside of calling 5K is that if you win you've taken out a dangerous opponent and also created a table image of someone not afraid to get his chips in the middle, even with a marginal hand - that combined with your previously tight image will mean that observant players will be very wary of messing with you, especially as you now hold a very large stack and can afford to play marginal hands which may draw out on them. Even if you lose, you'll still have 8K or so, so be able to play for a while longer without being desperate.

In a cash game the implied odds are the primary determinant of your action - I'd knowingly call pocket Aces if I was holding AKo, IF I was getting the right odds - 10-1 or so in this particular case. If you're deep stacked then calling a raise from a tight player (where you reckon he most likely has AA, KK or QQ) with something like 22 or 33 is often justified - he won't be able to lay it down if you make trips and you'll more than make up for the call when you do hit your trips.

In a tournament game the odds are still the most important factor in most situations, but lots of other issues come into play also.

[mrmuzeman]

Ok cheers for clearing that up it was a little unclear. Ok well your call was actually pretty much exactly a mathematically break even play. The amount you had to call was pretty much spot on what the odds of actually winning was. So in that sense it wasnt a bad call just a little bit of a pointless one cos you wana be gambling when you have a clear edge (or just a small edge in a cash game but id stay away from these small edges in tournies where chips are valuable).

Theres no implied odds here cos we know whats going into the pot and what it contains for sure. Theres no extra bets to be won.

[GETT1NLOTS]

Could any of you guys point me to a good thread / article or maybe even start one where the subject of implied odds are discussed at length in easy to understand language? Thanks for your input on this thread so far chaps. Very valuable.

[mrmuzeman]

if I give you an example youll understand it for sure (although obviously theres places that will discuss it in more depth than this post )

Say you have a medium pocket pair, say 66. You and all your opponents have 1000 chips and the blinds are 5/10

A raise comes in of 50 from early position. The player is poor and his raise could well indicate a big pocket pair like AA.

You call this NOT because you have the best hand right now - you know this. BUT because your implied odds for this little 50 bet are this poor players WHOLE STACK of 950 more.

If the flop comes Q 6 5 this player will NOT fold his AA no way and hell be all in with it on the flop if need be.

So for a simple call of 50 you can get 1000 chips here, like a 20/1 bet. The chances of you flopping your set are about 7/1 so its a great value bet. The pot odds when you call are poor just 65 in the pot and your calling 50 with the worst hand but your IMPLIED ODDS should you hit your hand are HUUUUUUUUUGE

[Doc]

Could any of you guys point me to a good thread / article where the subject of implied odds are discussed at length in easy to understand language?

I could G, but I'm afraid Keema might block 'em

Mr. M's example is a good one. Small pairs have huge implied odds as your trips is well hidden. I do doubt however that you'd win the whole 1000 chips against all but the numptiest of players!

That said, the point stands, and in any case there are lots of such numpties about!